Fake damascus?

[DNin]

Hello, firstly I apologize if this is not the right category to be asking such questions. Secondly, I read the forum's rules and found nothing ruling against this type of post, so once again apologies if I didn't read right.

To the actual questions at hand, I bought a very expensive knife for my father. It was advertised as real Damascus steel but once it arrived I took a look at it and there are chips on the blade's pattern on the tip. I'm a little embarrassed, it costed 400usd.
I know nothing about knives and read only superficially about this type of steel. I thought I knew enough and the photos of the blade didn't present any nicks or chips.

Here are the pictures:

https://imgur.com/a/yx1a2sr

I did some research but am still unsure and don't know where else to get an opinion.
Does this seem fake to you experts? Thank you in advance, cheers.

 

[DNin]

OP - Is it this one?
There are clear pictures in the add. It looks like the "Chip" at the tip is in one of the pictures...

"Buchcraft knife, Hunting knife, Wild life knife, Survival knife, Hand Forged, Damascus knife, Damascus DLC knife, Finnish knife" ​

Yes that is the one. You're right, I didn't see that. It's worse on the other side of the blade (which he doesn't show very clearly). But well... guess it's my fault too if I didn't see the chip.

The side he doesn't show is what got me thinking I got ripped off:

KenHash I have prepared a message for him but haven't sent it because I was wondering if I should ask him about his technique too. Should I give him a chance to "explain" what's going on?

Thank you everyone for your feedback.

 

[Arathol]

San Mia?

Yeah, looks like San Mai construction....

 

[Arathol]

The side he doesn't show is what got me thinking I got ripped off:
Should I give him a chance to "explain" what's going on?

Yeah, see what he says. It doesn't look to be much more than a bit of cosmetic damage. Hard to tell without the pic being in focus though. I wouldn't say "ripped off" just yet.....overall it looks like a pretty nice knife.....

 

[killgar]

If you drag your thumbnail across the area in question, going from the shiny area of the blade to the darker area, does your nail catch, or does it glide over?

If it glides over, that sounds like a sharpening mishap. And while cosmetic, still not cool on a $400 knife, but not a real problem.

But if your nail catches, like the shiny areas are a lower level in the blade than the darker area, then that sounds like chipping/delamination. And that's not cosmetic, that's bad Damascus/San Mai.

 

[DNin]

If you drag your thumbnail across the area in question, going from the shiny area of the blade to the darker area, does your nail catch, or does it glide over?

If it glides over, that sounds like a sharpening mishap. And while cosmetic, still not cool on a $400 knife, but not a real problem.

But if your nail catches, like the shiny areas are a lower level in the blade than the darker area, then that sounds like chipping/delamination. And that's not cosmetic, that's bad Damascus/San Mai.

The nail doesn't catch but there's a subtle change from the dark patterned part to the silvery one, almost like a very thin coat of paint. I tried to scratch it but it didn't come off or anything. So I don't think it's actual paint, I'm just trying to explain the feeling of it. Again, it's a practically imperceptible change on the "border" between the shiny area to the dark one.

Yeah, see what he says. It doesn't look to be much more than a bit of cosmetic damage. Hard to tell without the pic being in focus though. I wouldn't say "ripped off" just yet.....overall it looks like a pretty nice knife.....

I asked him what is the damage on the tip and what technique he uses and he answered that I shouldn't worry as the blade is strong and ready to use, that it's only a cosmetic defect that doesn't affect the functionality and adds originality, that it was made by hand in his workshop and that he tested it and stands behind it.

 

[Horsewright]

Ya shouldn't have to do this on a new knife but thats a very easy fix if you want to keep it and give it as a present. I know you are under some time restraint. Dip a Q tip into some ferric chloride (Radio Shack carries it as Archer Etchant). Carefully paint it on the bright spot that should be dark. In a couple of minutes it will darken. After four or five spray it down with Windex (original formula with ammonia), this will neutralize the acid. Dry and oil, you be done. Large areas you could hit with 2,000 grit sandpaper but that small area you've shown I'd leave alone. Don't get it on the secondary bevel as it will darken that too. Then ya have to fix the fix.

 

[DNin]

Ya shouldn't have to do this on a new knife but thats a very easy fix if you want to keep it and give it as a present. I know you are under some time restraint. Dip a Q tip into some ferric chloride (Radio Shack carries it as Archer Etchant). Carefully paint it on the bright spot that should be dark. In a couple of minutes it will darken. After four or five spray it down with Windex (original formula with ammonia), this will neutralize the acid. Dry and oil, you be done. Large areas you could hit with 2,000 grit sandpaper but that small area you've shown I'd leave alone. Don't get it on the secondary bevel as it will darken that too. Then ya have to fix the fix.

I live in Europe but if I try this I will try to find the correct brand replacements. Thank you for the suggestion, yes I'm very tight on time...

 

[Horsewright]

I live in Europe but if I try this I will try to find the correct brand replacements. Thank you for the suggestion, yes I'm very tight on time...

Should of mentioned its common to dilute the Ferric 2 or 3 to 1 with distilled water. Thats how the damascus was etched in the first place and thats what gives it its "topography" that you were trying to describe. Instead of all that ya might try white vinegar. It will etch the steel too just not as dark or as quickly. But maybe better than buying all that stuff. It still needs to be neutralized. From what I can see its a sharpening error on the makers part but the pics could be better. Anyhoo probably just cosmetic.

 

[killgar]

If there is a perceptible change in depth between the shiny area and the dark area that sounds like chipping/delamination to me. But not having the knife to examine in person makes it impossible for me to know for sure.

And for the maker to say that any "cosmetic" damage on a knife costing $400 "adds originality" is, in my opinion, a load of crap. It sounds like a maker who will say anything to excuse his mistakes and not issue a refund.

And in my opinion, a person should never have to "repair" a $400 knife. Including refinishing the blade in order to make it presentable as a special gift.

I wish you luck in whatever you do regarding this knife.

 

[DNin]

If there is a perceptible change in depth between the shiny area and the dark area that sounds like chipping/delamination to me. But not having the knife to examine in person makes it impossible for me to know for sure.

And for the maker to say that any "cosmetic" damage on a knife costing $400 "adds originality" is, in my opinion, a load of crap. It sounds like a maker who will say anything to excuse his mistakes and not issue a refund.

And in my opinion, a person should never have to "repair" a $400 knife. Including refinishing the blade in order to make it presentable as a special gift.

I wish you luck in whatever you do regarding this knife.

Thank you, you're right. I'll have to smarten up and probably ask here next time I decide to buy anything with a blade on it that costs more than $30. I should have been more careful.

 

[irsh]

Thank you, you're right. I'll have to smarten up and probably ask here next time I decide to buy anything with a blade on it that costs more than $30. I should have been more careful.

It happens. I seem to prefer to learn the hard way as well.

 

[The Grendels]

There's a number of companies who play fast and loose with the term Damascus. Civivi's Damascus steel is Damascus clad, so you're only getting a thin layer of Damascus wrapped around a core of regular steel. Some retailers are honest about this and others not so much (that or they're not aware that this is what they're peddling). It's the same way Civivi do carbon fiber, by applying a micro thin slab of carbon fiber over cheaper material. The only good thing about these Civivi deceptions is that they don't charge a horrendous price for them. The special material versions generally cost as much or just slightly more than the regular material versions.

 

[Yo Mama]

There's a number of companies who play fast and loose with the term Damascus. Civivi's Damascus steel is Damascus clad, so you're only getting a thin layer of Damascus wrapped around a core of regular steel. Some retailers are honest about this and others not so much (that or they're not aware that this is what they're peddling). It's the same way Civivi do carbon fiber, by applying a micro thin slab of carbon fiber over cheaper material. The only good thing about these Civivi deceptions is that they don't charge a horrendous price for them. The special material versions generally cost as much or just slightly more than the regular material versions.

You are wrong. Civivi has full cf scales (both my elementum and Incite have clear full cf scales), and on some models they combine g10 and cf. If you look into "damascus" it all has a carbon core, using 9cr18mov is great on Civivi's end.

BTW, company that uses a layer of cf over g10 on many models is Spyderco, so go figure.

 

[midnight flyer]

If there is a perceptible change in depth between the shiny area and the dark area that sounds like chipping/delamination to me. But not having the knife to examine in person makes it impossible for me to know for sure.

Agree. Some pretty fine diagnosing going on from looking at so/so photography. A "damascus style" blade looks quite a bit different in hard light than is does from a phone pic. I have purchased used knives from pictures and found the actual knife to be surprising on occasion. Sometimes better than expected, sometimes worse. A picture can get you in the ball park, sometimes not much more than that.

And for the maker to say that any "cosmetic" damage on a knife costing $400 "adds originality" is, in my opinion, a load of crap. It sounds like a maker who will say anything to excuse his mistakes and not issue a refund.

And in my opinion, a person should never have to "repair" a $400 knife. Including refinishing the blade in order to make it presentable as a special gift.

I wish you luck in whatever you do regarding this knife.

Once more, agree. Ruple, Stout, Hensarling, Dodd and many other makers live about 45 minutes from me. 30-40 years ago when gun shows had a knife section (at least around here) and those guys and other different makers were there to sell their wares. Where else could they go to exhibit/sell with no internet? It was all word of mouth. NEVER did I see an example of their work that wasn't perfect, and in some cases at that time they had not been making knives that long. I remember Bill Ruple showing me a folder riding in his pocket as a beater (IIRC a stockman) he had made. When he peened the bolsters together, the parts didn't line up to his satisfaction. He wouldn't sell it, not for anything. (I was hoping for a discount on a "second"!) He didn't want someone to think that imperfect example was representative of his quality. I know Mr. Ruple gets his price now, but at that time he wasn't really that expensive, especially for a hand made folder.

So think about that; before water jet cutting, before plasma cutting, before any automated cutting that man cut out all the pieces for the folder from flat stock. After making the blades, he drilled, machined, ground, peened and polished all the components by hand, assembled the knife, and after a week of making that knife, decided it wasn't good enough.

Not much excuse for a piece of sharpened flat stock marketed as custom to not be perfect. When some of the knife vendors (not makers) show up to the shows these days, they do have "damascus style" blades that look great. Fit and finish, great. Sheaths, great. One of the vendors there told me he didn't know where the folded steel was made, but the sheaths were made in India (saw the sticker). And almost all around the $75 mark for knife and sheath. Go figure.

 

[justjed]

I also think it's San Mai, and the shiny areas were probably a sharpening mishap. Not a good thing, but not a deal-breaker, in my opinion. Vinegar will patina the steel, but it's kind of hard to work with in very small area. A cotton swab, and steady hands are needed to keep the new discoloration localized. Mustard also works, and is a bit easier to be precise with.

Not cool on a $400 knife, but I've seen worse. Good luck, however you decide to handle it.

 

[strategy9]

If the maker replied with, "he stands by his work", then he should have no problem accepting it back and offering a refund... The reply he offered sounds to me like shady salesman jargon, "it's fine, don't worry about it", when in fact for a $400 custom piece of supposes "custom" work, I would worry about it.
Live and learn.

 

[Chronovore]

There's a number of companies who play fast and loose with the term Damascus. Civivi's Damascus steel is Damascus clad, so you're only getting a thin layer of Damascus wrapped around a core of regular steel. Some retailers are honest about this and others not so much (that or they're not aware that this is what they're peddling). It's the same way Civivi do carbon fiber, by applying a micro thin slab of carbon fiber over cheaper material. The only good thing about these Civivi deceptions is that they don't charge a horrendous price for them. The special material versions generally cost as much or just slightly more than the regular material versions.

There is no deception with Civivi. Their "damascus" is made with 9Cr18Mov and 10Cr15CoMov. (The latter is a Chinese analog of VG-10.) Coincidentally, they do an excellent heat treatment on their regular 9Cr18Mov.

As far as their carbon fiber, it depends on the model. Lots of companies do the thing you mentioned, including Spyderco. To see a counterexample, here is a Civivi with carbon fiber from a supporting dealer:

CIVIVI Elementum Stonewashed Knife with Marbled Carbon Fiber

This exclusive CIVIVI Elementum folding knife has a marble carbon fiber handle & a stonewashed D2 steel blade. Liner lock knife with deep carry pocket clip

www.bladehq.com

As far as the topic knife, it's hard to say. It seems fishy but I don't know. I do know that there are lots of bad actors in the market making "custom knives" out of junk materials in Pakistan. Some of those people market themselves deceptively on Instagram or elsewhere. They'll do things like use cosmetic "damascus" made using steels like 316L that wouldn't even take a heat treatment if they tried. It's worth researching the reputation of a custom maker before opening the virtual wallet.

 

[The Grendels]

There is no deception with Civivi. Their "damascus" is made with 9Cr18Mov and 10Cr15CoMov. (The latter is a Chinese analog of VG-10.) Coincidentally, they do an excellent heat treatment on their regular 9Cr18Mov.

As far as their carbon fiber, it depends on the model. Lots of companies do the thing you mentioned, including Spyderco. To see a counterexample, here is a Civivi with carbon fiber from a supporting dealer:

CIVIVI Elementum Stonewashed Knife with Marbled Carbon Fiber

This exclusive CIVIVI Elementum folding knife has a marble carbon fiber handle & a stonewashed D2 steel blade. Liner lock knife with deep carry pocket clip

www.bladehq.com

As far as the topic knife, it's hard to say. It seems fishy but I don't know. I do know that there are lots of bad actors in the market making "custom knives" out of junk materials in Pakistan. Some of those people market themselves deceptively on Instagram or elsewhere. They'll do things like use cosmetic "damascus" made using steels like 316L that wouldn't even take a heat treatment if they tried. It's worth researching the reputation of a custom maker before opening the virtual wallet.

That's good to know. I was a bit suspicious, given the pricing compared to regular Civivi materials, and came across a lot of material online throwing shade on their Damascus. One local seller refers to their stuff as Damascus clad. I've personally got three Civivis with Damascus: Baklash, Bullmastiff, and Dogma. The Baklash has a copper handle, the Dogma has layered G10, but the Bullmastiff has the micro layer of carbon fiber sheeting over G10 (which feels kind of pointless).

 

[DNin]

I had asked about his technique in the first message I sent him regarding this damage and he didn't answer right away. After me insisting, this is what he said:
"technique name is damascus sandwich. It is made from 2 plates 100 layers damascus and between them is putting plate on the high carbon tool steel. Name of the patern on the blade is a ladder. DLC (diamont like carbon) coating on the blade is hi-tec surface which is really very hard, like diamond."

Don't know if it's useful information or not.

 

[J. Doyle]

The technique and materials could be sound and legit. But there's more ambiguity from the maker than I care for.

I'm curious what exactly the core material is. That could help explain exactly what we're seeing and if there is indeed a flaw or not.

Frankly, the pictures flat out suck. And without much clearer pics and/or more forthcoming info from the maker, any answer so far is purely a guess.