Fake Knives, Paranoia and Asking the Internet

[Rasco]

Not a day goes by that I don't see a forum post, or Facebook group post from someone asking if their Spyderco is a fake.

The results tend to be about 50-50, but it seems like the fear and the worrying is seeping in...
I saw a guy who says he owns 3 PM2s post asking if his 4th, which he bought here on BF.com, was a fake...
Consensus was an overwhelming No, but just the fact that this guy felt the need to ask is pretty crazy.

Just curious, do other knife companies struggle with this? I admit, I don't spend any time in the Benchmade sub-forum, but if I were to head over there, are there a lot of "Is this Osborne fake?" topics??
I know Microtechs are probably one of the more knocked-off brands out there. Do Microtech fans constantly worry about the legitimacy of the knives they are receiving from 3rd party sales?
Are Spydercos designs just so awesomely simple that they are the easiest to clone effectively?

No doubt the internet fuels this paranoia big-time. The guy mentioned above said he watched a YouTube video about fake PM2s from CutleryLover....

For me, my solution is simply: Never buy used knives, never buy from eBay. But obviously not everyone feels the same.

I don't really stress about fakes at all, ever. But do you guys think Spyderco fans sort of help create, or perpetuate this "knock-off hysteria" with the constant, daily, public verification checks?
Do you think this activity hurts the brand, even beyond the knock-offs themselves?

 

[inkynate]

I think easiest to clone has nothing to do with it. Nor is Spyderco the only company being taken advantage of by the counterfeiters.

In addition the Spyderco, there are a disturbing number of fake Sebenzas, Striders, Hinderers, etc... out there.

I think Spyderco is targeted because they are the most desirable to whatever their "market" is and therefore also the most lucrative for the counterfeiters to produce.

The Paramilitary 2 for example has been probably the most in demand production folder on the market for several years running. Spyderco is a relatively small company and has struggled to keep up with demand. This unfortunately creates an opportunity for fakes to come in and soak up some of that demand from buyers who aren't as informed or who don't have the integrity to buy the real thing.

 

[Rasco]

Yeah I think I tend to just see more of this from Spyderco because I am in a lot of Spyderco groups and every single day someone is asking "Is my knife fake??"

I checked out Benchmade's forum and I did see several "Is this fake?" posts.
Not so many in the CRK forum, but I think maybe the higher prices weeds out a lot of the "low information buyers"? I did see plenty of fake Sebenzas out there...

I think I'm just getting sick of seeing the topics posted every day and always offering people the same advice, which none of them take.

 

[salmonkiller]

If it's too good to be true it probably is a fake.Sometimes common sense is not too common.They thought they were getting a good deal until the knife arrived and was in hand.Live and learn.Some people learn the easy way and some learn the hard way.Rule number one for me is to do my due diligence before I make a purchase.Where and who do they purchase the fakes from?Think about it......

 

[Rasco]

What do you guys think about the idea that all the forum posts are kinda having the effect of inducing a sort of paranoia in some people?
Again, the results to these "Is this fake?" posts seem to be about 50-50.
So half the time, someone is so uncertain about the legitimacy of their Spyderco, they take the time to make a post in a group or forum asking for help confirming it's authenticity. Even when it's a legit knife. I gotta think a lot of this uncertainty stems from stuff they have read on the web, heard on YT and discussed on forums like our beloved BF.com

Seems like a "trust no one" mentality, mostly about PM2s.
My usual advice of "buy from a reputable dealer" is hard to follow when premium quality sites like BladeHQ run out of stock within a few hours of announcing them for sale. So even someone who has resolved to ONLY buy from a good source may end up waiting months and months and missing the boat several times before they eventually get one. So I can *ALMOST* see how they would think about resorting to eBay or some questionable Facebook group, B/S/T group or whatever.

 

[kershawguy13]

Here is a simple way to not get a fake:

Order from reputable dealers
Don't buy used
Don't order off of the auction site

Follow these and you're GTG,0.

 

[Stays Sharp]

Noone will be as informed as some others AND noone wants to get ripped off. I don't see why inquiring if a knife is fake would be a bad thing. Paranoia, conspiracy or whatever... Spydercos are heavily counterfeited and some copies are down to the box they are shipped in. The forums are a tool to educate and learn, I don't think it's detrimental to the brand at all.

There is even a sticky on this subforum dedicated to spotting fakes and the Spyderco.com forum has an entire subforum dedicate to the same thing. The company itself actively pursues fakes and WELCOMES its members' help.

 

[bld522]

It's no wonder people ask if their knife is a fake. Sometimes the sellers they buy from don't even know they're selling fakes. As STR said in another thread:

The Chinese have western marketing helpers with experience from Hong Kong and they have buyers also. These buyers order and actually buy at least one of every model they copy and then they mass produce them to staggering accuracy. Many people have written me only to discover they were taken because its not just this Losha they copy. They copy Hnderer, Strider, Reeve, Spyderco, Emerson, and Benchmade quite regularly as well as numerous other Boker and off brand names they happen to like or think can sell.

It can be very difficult to discern the real from the fake on some of these unfortunately and often the only real tell is the metric hardware. [Emphasis added.] I am sure many people feel like they receive a bargain with these as they can indeed be nice but they are fooling a lot of people and costing them great $ losses when fooled by someone. Often the seller is fooled also and had no idea they were taken also. You really have to watch the auction sites for these scams.

Source: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1188325-Kevin-John-Knife?p=13620606#post13620606

I don't know about the rest of you, but I don't have the ability to distinguish metric from non-metric hardware on sight. And I don't want to have to send every knife I buy back to the manufacturer to confirm it's legit. So unless you're willing to roll the dice, I'd suggest you follow kershawguy13's three simple rules:

Order from reputable dealers
Don't buy used
Don't order off of the auction site

 

[Sal Glesser]

It's a big problem for many manufacturers in the knife industry and also outside of the knife industry. Probably wouldn't hurt to call you Congressman.

sal

 

[skyhorse]

YES fake knives DO hurt the manufacturer! They also hurt the American worker and the buyer as well. They hurt the American economy,think counterfeit money. It's got to the point that you as a buyer need to buy from an authorized Spyderco dealer. If you purchase used,know and trust the seller!

 

[bld522]

Which brings us back to STR's point. What happens when even a trusted seller doesn't know they're selling fakes? Take my word for it. He's right. Some of the fakes are so good that they're virtually indistinguishable from the originals. And kershawguy13's advice is the ONLY way to fly. Problem is, if everybody takes it, the BF Exchange is dead.

 

[skyhorse]

Which brings us back to STR's point. What happens when even a trusted seller doesn't know they're selling fakes? Take my word for it. He's right. Some of the fakes are so good that they're virtually indistinguishable from the originals. And kershawguy13's advice is the ONLY way to fly. Problem is, if everybody takes it, the BF Exchange is dead.

For example if I was to sell one of my Spyderco knives, (lol,this will never happen btw) they were purchased from an authorized Spyderco dealer and NO worries.:thumbup:

 

[bld522]

There aren't any worries for you. But for someone who might want to buy your Spyderco knife, worries abound. As a potential purchaser, I might have to ask you for proof that the knife is legit. If I did that, could you provide it? Would it even be worth the hassle for you to do that?

For me, purchasing a knife other than as kershawguy13 recommended is a calculated risk. With that in mind, will I purchase knives from other than authorized resellers? Yep. Will I buy used knives? Yep. Will I buy from the auction site? Yep. Will I try to be careful? Of course. But if I end up getting stuck with a fake, will I have anyone to blame but myself? Nope! If I gamble and lose, it's entirely on me.

 

[MTS49]

Bld522, you bring up really good points about sellers here being able to provide proof of original purchase.

I'm new around here, but I have seen many PM2's sell the same day they are listed. Sellers don't have to even bother with proof, they know it will sell. Does that indicate the level of trust by forum members? Surely those that get knives off the auction site are a little naive... I want one, but not that bad. I would rather be patient and be sure I get an authentic PM2.

 

[bld522]

Let's just say that some folks are willing to assume more risk than others. And of course, purchasing from someone who has a good reputation and lots of transactions increases your odds of success. Fortunately, I've never been burned in a BF transaction. But others have. Proceed with caution.

 

[Vegas Blade]

I have bought several, if not all of my 12 Millies here on the exchange. Also a PM2 or two. I look at several factors before I buy. 1) How long have they been here? This alone can tell you a bunch. This is a very knowledgable group. If a person has been a Gold Member here for several years, that's a big plus. 2) Feedback. If a person has 15+ knife deals here on BF, and they are all positive, I feel pretty good. 3) Paypal offers a level of protection for a buyer. If you tell PP you bought a counterfeit, and open a claim, you have a good chance of getting your money back.

Just little things that I personally look for. I also tend to be a BIT more trusting of fellow BF members. I haven't been burned yet........yet

 

[The Deacon]

Here is a simple way to not get a fake:

Order from reputable dealers
Don't buy used
Don't order off of the auction site

Follow these and you're GTG,0.

Or, if you are buying used knives, discontinued ones "LNIB", or current models off the auction site do your research and know enough about the model and specific variant you are being offered to spot a fake. With Spydercos you could also stick to buying only CC#'d pieces since, AFAIK, nobody's faked a CC# yet. Taking a screen shot of the listing and paying with PayPal gives you an extra layer of protection in case the knife you receive is not the one in the photos that you used to determine authenticity.

 

[bld522]

I agree that there are things people can do to reduce the risk of ending up with a fake. But how much time and effort do you think most people want to spend gathering data in order to increase the odds of buying an original? And when fakes get to the point of being "staggeringly accurate" and the only way to tell some of them apart from originals is determining whether the hardware used in their construction is metric or non-metric, what's the next things folks are going to need to distinguish between them . . . electron microscopes?

Sure, people like us will take the time to learn enough minutia about our prospective purchases to hopefully protect ourselves. That's just a part of who we are. But Joe Consumer isn't going to do that. For Joe it will remain "see knife, like knife, buy knife". And consciously or unconsciously, it's Joe who will keep the people making fakes in business.

 

[The Deacon]

I agree that there are things people can do to reduce the risk of ending up with a fake. But how much time and effort do you think most people want to spend gathering data in order to increase the odds of buying an original? And when fakes get to the point of being "staggeringly accurate" and the only way to tell some of them apart from originals is determining whether the hardware used in their construction is metric or non-metric, what's the next things folks are going to need to distinguish between them . . . electron microscopes?

Sure, people like us will take the time to learn enough minutia about our prospective purchases to hopefully protect ourselves. That's just a part of who we are. But Joe Consumer isn't going to do that. For Joe it will remain "see knife, like knife, buy knife". And consciously or unconsciously, it's Joe who will keep the people making fakes in business.

You can avoid the need for knowledge it all you ever want to buy are knives currently in production and readily available. For collectors, and particularly for those just getting into collecting, it's not a viable option. Even if they join the Collecctors Club, it's only a "from this day forward" solution. If they want older models they missed, they have to purchase them on the secondary market. But those with enough interest in a particular genre of knives to collect them should have the level of interest to do the research needed to avoid getting stuck with a fake. I will admit that I'm glad that almost all of the most accurately cloned Spydercos are models I have zero interest in collecting. But yes, your observations about Joe Consumer are correct. Especially since Joe's first, and often only, criteria is the perception that he's getting a bargain. If it looks like he's saving a bundle by purchasing a PM2 from an eBay seller in China he'll never waste a minute wondering how someone who had to import a knife from the USA can sell it for a quarter of what US based websites are charging and offer free shipping to boot. All he sees is the name of the knife, and the price tag. And, if he's like most knife buyers, his expectations will be low enough that he may never know he bought a fake.

Still, compared with the potential danger posed by counterfeit GFCI outlets and circuit breakers, finding out that you've bought a fake knife is a relatively painless lesson.

 

[bld522]

Ouch!!! You got that right.

I have noticed some interesting developments on the counterfeit front. Some counterfeiters who used to sell on AliExpress aren't there anymore. They've left that platform at the supposed behest of the Chinese government. It's hard to say whether or not there's any truth to that statement. But it's clear to me that AliExpress needed to do a little "cleanup" in advance of the Alibaba IPO to sanitize the offering and make the IPO palatable to American investors. I honestly don't think that's going to slow the counterfeiters down. They'll figure out a way to continue getting their fakes into the marketplace, especially if the demand for them continues unabated.