Fall shut

basmca said:
i find this worry of framelocks wearing out very weird.
a lot of people mention it and some do seem to worry about it, but no one ever actually has it happen?

for me it seems rather hard to achive.
i've had my 0920 for a year now, and it's by far my most carried, used and more importantly most flipped knife.
i play with this knife pretty much every day and must flip it at least 100 times a day.
that comes down to around 36.500 flips ( but i would guess closer to 50.000-100.000).
after all this the lockbar is still in the same position as when i got it out of the box, i cannot see any change in lockup %.

it's also the knife with the best action i have ever had and fall shut under it's own weight without any movement or assisting.
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I’ve seen it happen on Emersons both frame and liner locks. The 920 has a steel lockbar insert which largely mitigates the problem. So does carburizing or carbidizing. It is specifically bare ti lockfaces that seem most prone to it.

Y3DGfYw.jpg

This framelock is worn all the way over. That little space that looks like it has abit more room is actually just cause the detent ball hit the scale.
eST64U2.jpg
 
I have a couple of folders that fall shut. From most expensive to cheapest: ZT 0562, North Arm Skaha, TRM Neutron (surprised at that one), 2 TwoSun Night Morning designed knives (don't know the model numbers), and a Stedemon BP02.
 
Sonnydaze said:
It's actually "enjoyable" with the PM2. I don't expect/require/need it on other knives.
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I guess you can include the compression and axis lock. Button locks are also frequently drop shutty when the lock is held.
 
Sonnydaze said:
It's actually "enjoyable" with the PM2. I don't expect/require/need it on other knives.
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I like it on the Manix 2 as well. If my Manix didn’t fall closed I’d have a tough time getting it there. I rest my middle-pinky on the clip and pull the CBBL with my thumb and index. If it wouldn’t fall on it’s on I’d be half afraid to try and close it on my leg, it wouldn’t be overly secure at all. With my mini Ritter and it’s similar Axis lock I can because it’s a smaller/lighter frame so I don’t need to stabilize it as much. I can get the Manix halfway and lower it with with my thumb, but it’s much easier to just let it fall.


I should add that the first day my Manix arrived it took me a while to figure out how to close it best. The edge fell on my fingers more times than I’d like to admit and it definitely bit me each and every time.
 
Lapedog said:
I’ve seen it happen on Emersons both frame and liner locks. The 920 has a steel lockbar insert which largely mitigates the problem. So does carburizing or carbidizing. It is specifically bare ti lockfaces that seem most prone to it.

Y3DGfYw.jpg

This framelock is worn all the way over. That little space that looks like it has abit more room is actually just cause the detent ball hit the scale.
eST64U2.jpg
Click to expand...

Oke well that's not great.
How much did you use those knives?

I guess another reason for when you want an Emmerson knife, buy a ZT.
 
with a compression or axis lock my fingers are always out of the way if I hold the lock back I cant see how they would be in the blade path while doing this. whenever I have gotten bit its always been from liner/frame locks mostly the ones with no finger choil and an edge that goes all the way back.

when I watch people testing for fall shut action they always release the lock then change their hold on the knife completely tip the handle back so the spine of the blade is pointing upwards then lightly shake the knife to demonstrate its fall shuttinees or lack thereof.

as someone mentioned above I can understand the satisfaction derived from the process for some people and that's cool.
 
Whenever I receive a folder that has the blade fall shut when the lock is disengaged, I tighten the pivot. I think a folder like that is too loose.
 
Fall shut is fine but not at the cost of a weak/loose detent. After being cut badly by a fall shut framelock folder, I bent the lockside and it is now with a stonger detent and needs a tiny bit shake to close, which I much prefer.
 
This is solely for me and how I use my knives but I’m getting away from knives with a fall shut action.

IMO these are great for people who make YouTube videos and people who mostly use their knives as fidget devices. In my personal experience I almost got bit badly by my ZT once because it fell so easily. My fingernail saved me from a pretty nasty incident. When using a knife one handed and closing it I found the ZTs to be not worth the risk. Sure it’s really cool to have a drop shut action but for me and how I find myself using knives I don’t think the juice is worth the squeeze for frame lock or liner lock flippers.

As others have said if it’s on a pm2 I’m all about it because my fingers are out of the way but I think that for frame locks it’s just not worth it.
 
The fall-shutty blades on my Cold Steel Code 4 and Cold Steel American Lawman actually make them easier to close one-handed, so yes, I do like fall-shutty blades, but I've never really thought about it as a sign of quality. For example, the Spyderco Tenacious. It's very smooth, but the blade doesn't fall shut on its own weight, I have to manually close it with my thumb on the thumb-hole. I don't want a fall-shutty blade on the Tenacious as the lack of a ricasso means there's no unsharpened bit for my forefinger to catch as the blade falls shut. But it's so smooth, it's quality in my opinion. I don't equate smoothness with fall-shutty-ness. For example, when my Real Steel T101 Thor on bearings got a bit gritty for awhile, I could feel the grittiness, it wasn't smooth, but the blade still fell shut on its own weight, probably mainly due to the weight of the blade.
 
Smoothness at the pivot vs smoothness at the detent...

I think smoothness in the pivot while being solid with no play is a sign of quality, tight tolerances.

Tolerances at the pivot can be easily supplemented with heavy blades and weakly sprung lock bars to get the blade to drop shut.
 
I don’t necessarily equate fall shut with quality or danger. All knives are dangerous if mishandled, not so much if treated with respect.

I prefer the “hydraulic action” for smooth opening, but do enjoy a fall shut action with a solid lockup. That impresses me.
 
raymond454 said:
I see much said of folders that are so smooth, they fall shut. It seems to be preferred by many as a sign of quality. Could one make the argument that it's simply a looser (not smoother) action? Wouldn't you think it actually is less safe to have a blade that can catch a finger from drop shutting?
I own several customs with blades that will fall with a very slight assist. I'm not so sure I would want one that free fall and I'm not knocking ones that do. Interested in opinions.
Ray
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Everyone says their knife is smooth regardless of what smooth actually is. It's funny. Are bearings smooth? Is pb washers smooth?

Fall shuttatude is based on the detent riding on the blade. The force the lockbar has in that equation as well as a few other things.

You also have knives that have zero detent causing any drag like compression locks, axis locks or button locks from various brands.

The true fall shut actions usually have flat but small detents. Generally with ceramic as the material.

Grimsmo is one of the pioneers of the fall shut guillotine action. I have a handful of knives that also fall shut without much complaining from various brands. Check a few out on my yt
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC__TLr6CbdacZKoonxxBFVw

The Rubens titanium and tools knife is pretty much the same action as the grimsmo. Though I do love the action on my ckf sohkoi2.0 and real Steel Megalodon eclipse 2018.
 
I have plenty of nice knives that will close shut with some shakeage, but it's not a feature I look for or particularly enjoy. My cheap knife, the Ritter Grip does it and I don't mind because where my fingers are on the AXIS lock, they are out of the way of blade travel. However, I have one VERY expensive knife that does this, and as a result, I have a nick in the edge because I was looking up at something for a split second when depressing the lock mechanism, and I had just run the knife on my Spyderco Sharpmaker, and the knife edge banged into the edge of one of the triangular stones still mounted when it immediately dropped. Nice little nick there. It was my mistake, and if nothing else, reinforces why I don't like "drop shut" action on a knife. There are countless times where I will be working on something, and won't be paying attention 100% to the knife as I'm closing it. I am relying on many years of instinctual mechanics in closing the knife, which works for me.

The whole "drop shut" thing seems to be primarily for Instagram likes.
 
dkb45 said:
I guess you can include the compression and axis lock. Button locks are also frequently drop shutty when the lock is held.
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Every time I try a Benchmade in the store i get bitten lol. I still want one really bad but if you are not expecting it to drop that fast its pretty surprising.
 
I don't like a fall shut blade in an axis lock, or liner lock. I want control over the blade at all times.
 
Basmca to answer your framelock question. Your ZT shows the fix to the problem, a steel interface for the lockbar to press against the hardened steel tang ramp of the blade. Ti. Is softer than the blade steel and therefore worn away by interaction with the blade, just at the point where they mate during lockup. The lockbar itself will be able to flex for many years without a problem but the lock "face" is consumable . I sadly have a DPX hest with a worn lockface and am not loving the blade play that results. Sorry for the highjack.
 
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