Recommendation? Fallkniven A1pro or TRC Apocalypse (L.CoS or Elmax)

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Gearo

Joined
Aug 22, 2019
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Hi there. I'm about to get one of those. For the past four weeks. Before that I've read everything I could get my hands on considering the steels, heat treatment and general knife construction, but that seemed to only make things worse:D So please, I need help - what are your experiences, thaughts, opinions about the knives/steels, what are the main advantages/disadvantages (which one is better for what activities) etc. Which one would you get yourself and why?
I'm leaving out the details about the exact intended usage in order to try and start a more general discussion. In my humble opinion, these could be the "best" knives in this category, so I'm kind of surprised there isn't more threads like this already.
Thanks!
Greetings from Vienna, Austria
 
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Gearo said:
Hi there. I'm about to get one of those. For the past four weeks. Before that I've read everything I could get my hands on considering the steels, heat treatment and general knife construction, but that seemed to only make things worse:D So please, I need help - what are your experiences, thaughts, opinions about the knives/steels, what are the main advantages/disadvantages (which one is better for what activities) etc. Which one would you get yourself and why?
I'm leaving out the details about the exact intended usage in order to try and start a more general discussion. In my humble opinion, these could be the "best" knives in this category, so I'm kind of surprised there isn't more threads like this already.
Thanks!
Greetings from Vienna, Austria
Click to expand...
They look similar but are different. The Fallkniven is better at carving wood if you adjust the edge out of box the TRC is more general purpose hard use Geometry.

The difference in steels will be masked by thick Geometry. The Fallkniven will take an apex better if you hit the angles properly.

Just buy both silly :D

No answers here will satisfy your curiosity :p
 
DeadboxHero said:
The difference in steels will be masked by thick Geometry.
Click to expand...
These were exactly my thaughts, but the geometry does not influence the edge retention aspect that much (especially with the thickness of the blades), or did I get that wrong?
From what I could piece together until now, the 59-60 HRC treated Elmax will lose the "hair-popping" sharpness relatively quickly, but will keep a "working" edge for a very long time after that. I am certain the LCoS of the A1pro will take a wicked edge (after seing you shave with it, who wouldn't be;)), and hold it decently, but how does it compare? I would also expect that Elmax might be a bit "chippier", but couldn't find any information to actually support that. Which one woud, do you think, be more likely to survive an encounter with a nail while splitting wood?

DeadboxHero said:
Just buy both silly :D
Click to expand...
Don't think I haven't thaught about it. More than once:D Eventually, as it would seem, there's simply no way around it:)
For now I'm already in for a couple other smaller knives (TRC "classic" and "this is freedom" in M390), and my budget is stretched to where its becoming almost translucent. I have to choose only one:( And the Fallkniven just had to go and complicate things further with the A1x.

DeadboxHero said:
No answers here will satisfy your curiosity :p
Click to expand...
How very true. I've got the bug :D

Tough decisions ahead :D:D:D
Thank you
 
You: "These were exactly my thaughts, but the geometry does not influence the edge retention aspect that much (especially with the thickness of the blades), or did I get that wrong?"
A thinner, more acute edge will hold its sharpness longer, provided you're not using it hard (chopping pots and pans).


You: "From what I could piece together until now, the 59-60 HRC treated Elmax will lose the "hair-popping" sharpness relatively quickly, but will keep a "working" edge for a very long time after that."
That's a myth. All steels will lose their high initial sharpness quickly. The more wear resistant steels will hold an useful edge much longer.


You: "I am certain the LCoS of the A1pro will take a wicked edge (after seing you shave with it, who wouldn't be;)), and hold it decently, but how does it compare? I would also expect that Elmax might be a bit "chippier", but couldn't find any information to actually support that. Which one woud, do you think, be more likely to survive an encounter with a nail while splitting wood?"
Both steels will take an extremely keen edge. Elmax is not chippy. Except for Vanax SuperClean, Elmax is the toughest (resistance to chipping and breaking) of the powder stainless steels. The TRC Elmax runs 59-60 Rc, and the A1 Pro runs 60 Rc, so that's basically a wash. If you hit a nail while chopping, you're going to roll or chip the blade. The blade with the more acute geometry at the edge will suffer most.

Both of these knives are similar in design and quality. The TRC is a bit longer and a bit heavier, so that would make it a better chopper, but not by much. The A1 Pro has a slightly thicker blade, which will make it a bit tougher, but I really doubt you'll break either of these blades.

The steels are going to be similar. The heat treat might make a difference, but none of us know what the heat treats are.

Bottom line: Don't sweat it. Choose the knife you like. There is not likely to be much of a performance difference between them.
 
Twindog said:
You: "These were exactly my thaughts, but the geometry does not influence the edge retention aspect that much (especially with the thickness of the blades), or did I get that wrong?"
A thinner, more acute edge will hold its sharpness longer, provided you're not using it hard (chopping pots and pans).


You: "From what I could piece together until now, the 59-60 HRC treated Elmax will lose the "hair-popping" sharpness relatively quickly, but will keep a "working" edge for a very long time after that."
That's a myth. All steels will lose their high initial sharpness quickly. The more wear resistant steels will hold an useful edge much longer.


You: "I am certain the LCoS of the A1pro will take a wicked edge (after seing you shave with it, who wouldn't be;)), and hold it decently, but how does it compare? I would also expect that Elmax might be a bit "chippier", but couldn't find any information to actually support that. Which one woud, do you think, be more likely to survive an encounter with a nail while splitting wood?"
Both steels will take an extremely keen edge. Elmax is not chippy. Except for Vanax SuperClean, Elmax is the toughest (resistance to chipping and breaking) of the powder stainless steels. The TRC Elmax runs 59-60 Rc, and the A1 Pro runs 60 Rc, so that's basically a wash. If you hit a nail while chopping, you're going to roll or chip the blade. The blade with the more acute geometry at the edge will suffer most.

Both of these knives are similar in design and quality. The TRC is a bit longer and a bit heavier, so that would make it a better chopper, but not by much. The A1 Pro has a slightly thicker blade, which will make it a bit tougher, but I really doubt you'll break either of these blades.

The steels are going to be similar. The heat treat might make a difference, but none of us know what the heat treats are.

Bottom line: Don't sweat it. Choose the knife you like. There is not likely to be much of a performance difference between them.
Click to expand...


DLlvBBO.png

Looks like CPM 154 is the toughest PM stainless with Larrin's charpy notch testing.
(I'd like to see where Nitrobe77 is)


The extra carbide volume in Elmax is detrimental to shock/impact toughness.

Vanax improves the toughness some with finer nitrides over carbides.
The TRC is thick enough that it isn't a big deal, a nice knife it would make regardless.
 
upload_2019-8-25_10-13-39.png

Well, we always have the problem of different sources giving different information.
The above chart is from Bohler's testing. It shows that Elmax is clearly tougher than CPM 154 at a given hardness.

In that chart:

PM 14-2-4 CrMoV is S30V
PM 14-2-3 CrMoVN is S35VN
PM 14-4 CrMo is CPM 154
14-4 CrMo is 154 CM
 
Twindog said:
Well, we always have the problem of different sources giving different information.
The above chart is from Bohler's testing. It shows that Elmax is clearly tougher than CPM 154 at a given hardness.

In that chart:

PM 14-2-4 CrMoV is S30V
PM 14-2-3 CrMoVN is S35VN
PM 14-4 CrMo is CPM 154
14-4 CrMo is 154 CM
Click to expand...
Here’s another Elmax toughness test for you, showing comparable toughness to S90V and lower than M390: https://www5.kau.se/sites/default/files/Dokument/subpage/2010/02/26_349_359_pdf_19432.pdf
 
Larrin said:
Here’s another Elmax toughness test for you, showing comparable toughness to S90V and lower than M390: https://www5.kau.se/sites/default/files/Dokument/subpage/2010/02/26_349_359_pdf_19432.pdf
Click to expand...

As I said, different sources give different information.

Bohler's own data show that Elmax is tougher than M390 -- both of which it makes. M390 will have better wear resistance.

From Bohler: "Internal lab toughness tests have shown that Elmax, even at maximum hardness, outperforms other stainless PM knife grades, regardless of their hardness."
https://www.uddeholm.com/app/uploads/sites/54/2019/02/Sales_Brochure_Uddeholm_HandKnifes.pdf

I find it unlikely that S90V is anywhere near as tough as Elmax.
 
Those BladeHQ numbers are not from Bohler.

The Bohler-Uddeholm toughness numbers are from BU USA, which is/was a sales group. Uddeholm (Sweden) does not rate Elmax toughness particularly high.
 
That source is biased. They are promoting a product. Also 52rc is not relavent to quality knives.

The information in this chart didn't translate to Elmax being tougher at higher hardness and thin Geometry like seen in a knife. At 62-63rc it failed quickly on a chopping a big nail.



Twindog said:
View attachment 1185014

Well, we always have the problem of different sources giving different information.
The above chart is from Bohler's testing. It shows that Elmax is clearly tougher than CPM 154 at a given hardness.

In that chart:

PM 14-2-4 CrMoV is S30V
PM 14-2-3 CrMoVN is S35VN
PM 14-4 CrMo is CPM 154
14-4 CrMo is 154 CM
Click to expand...
 
In the video
Elmax failed at 4 hits
S35VN failed at 7hits
CPM154 failed at 10 hits


"Elmax, even at maximum hardness, outperforms other stainless PM knife grades regardless of their hardness"

Not true,

I put Elmax near maximum hardness, I even gave Elmax a higher 350°f temper. Everything's else was 300°f temper. Elmax STILL failed the fastest when chopping a big nail.

Twindog said:
From Bohler: "Internal lab toughness tests have shown that Elmax, even at maximum hardness, outperforms other stainless PM knife grades, regardless of their hardness."
https://www.uddeholm.com/app/uploads/sites/54/2019/02/Sales_Brochure_Uddeholm_HandKnifes.pdf
Click to expand...
 
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DeadboxHero said:
That source is biased. They are promoting a product. Also 52rc is not relavent to quality knives.

The information in this chart didn't translate to Elmax being tougher at higher hardness and thin Geometry like seen in a knife. At 62-63rc it failed quickly on a chopping a big nail.
Click to expand...
I took the bars to be the foot-pound and the line to be the HRC, so S30 at 62 HRC = 52 ft/lbs.
 
Larrin said:
Those BladeHQ numbers are not from Bohler.

The Bohler-Uddeholm toughness numbers are from BU USA, which is/was a sales group. Uddeholm (Sweden) does not rate Elmax toughness particularly high.
Click to expand...

This quote was from Bohler, not its sales group:
"Internal lab toughness tests have shown that Elmax, even at maximum hardness, outperforms other stainless PM knife grades, regardless of their hardness."
 
DeadboxHero said:
In the video
Elmax failed at 4 hits
S35VN failed at 7hits
CPM154 failed at 10 hits


"Elmax, even at maximum hardness, outperforms other stainless PM knife grades regardless of their hardness"

Not true,

I put Elmax near maximum hardness, I even gave Elmax a higher 350°f temper. Everything's else was 300°f temper. Elmax STILL failed the fastest when chopping a big nail.
Click to expand...


All you are saying is that Elmax didn't do well with your heat treat. Bohler's own tests show much different results.
 
That was Peter's HT
Also I'm not paid to sell these steels.

Bohler didn't list the HT they used nor did they make knives to test
Twindog said:
All you are saying is that Elmax didn't do well with your heat treat. Bohler's own tests show much different results.
Click to expand...
 
Twindog said:
This quote was from Bohler, not its sales group:
"Internal lab toughness tests have shown that Elmax, even at maximum hardness, outperforms other stainless PM knife grades, regardless of their hardness."
Click to expand...
No. Bohler and Uddeholm in their respective companies operate independently. Bohler would never promote Elmax. Only Bohler-Uddehom USA would promote Elmax.
 
In Uddeholm’s toughness testing they measured 23J at 59 Rc for Elmax. This is significantly less than even their 10V alternative, Vanadis 8 (40J) at 60 Rc. And of course it’s much lower than Vanadis 4 Extra. It is about equal to Vanadis 60 at 62 Rc. Maybe more people now would be familiar with Maxamet which is roughly equivalent to Vanadis 60 though the Uddeholm steel significantly predates it. Elmax is simply not a very tough steel. I could believe someone finding Elmax to be marginally more tough than some other stainless PM stainless steels since none of them are particularly tough. But Elmax is not in a category all by itself in terms of PM stainless toughness, it’s in the same ballpark as the others.

Sources:
https://www.uddeholm.com/app/uploads/sites/54/2018/05/Tech-Uddeholm-Vanax-EN.pdf.pdf
https://www.uddeholm.com/files/vanadis_60-english.pdf
 
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