Recommendation? Fallkniven A1pro or TRC Apocalypse (L.CoS or Elmax)

Larrin said:
In Uddeholm’s toughness testing they measured 23J at 59 Rc for Elmax. This is significantly less than even their 10V alternative, Vanadis 8 (40J) at 60 Rc. And of course it’s much lower than Vanadis 4 Extra. It is about equal to Vanadis 60 at 62 Rc. Maybe more people now would be familiar with Maxamet which is roughly equivalent to Vanadis 60 though the Uddeholm steel significantly predates it. Elmax is simply not a very tough steel. I could believe someone finding Elmax to be marginally more tough than some other stainless PM stainless steels since none of them are particularly tough. But Elmax is not in a category all by itself in terms of PM stainless toughness, it’s in the same ballpark as the others.

Sources:
https://www.uddeholm.com/app/uploads/sites/54/2018/05/Tech-Uddeholm-Vanax-EN.pdf.pdf
https://www.uddeholm.com/files/vanadis_60-english.pdf
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You have to remember this thread is about comparing Elmax to CoS. In a previous thread, you wrote about CoS:
"Cobalt social steel is a modified 440C with cobalt, moly, and a small vanadium addition. It is cast conventionally. Therefore it has moderate wear resistance., relatively low toughness, and good corrosion resistance."
https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/cpm3v-vs-cobalt-special-steel-lam-cos.1604669/

Then, you just posted a link that shows Elmax, run harder, is still more than twice as tough as 440C.

In the post above, you wrote: "I could believe someone finding Elmax to be marginally more tough than some other stainless PM stainless steels since none of them are particularly tough." Fair enough, but that's what I originally said:Elmax is the toughest of the powder stainless steels other than Vanax SC. If you think Elmax is chippy, as the OP worried, then you'd have to say that all powder stainless steels are chippy, which of course is not true.
 
I didn't say that Elmax is the toughest apart from Vanax. I said I could believe someone determining that because the steels are close to each other (and there is scatter in experimental results.)
 
Twindog said:
You have to remember this thread is about comparing Elmax to CoS. In a previous thread, you wrote about CoS:
"Cobalt social steel is a modified 440C with cobalt, moly, and a small vanadium addition. It is cast conventionally. Therefore it has moderate wear resistance., relatively low toughness, and good corrosion resistance."
https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/cpm3v-vs-cobalt-special-steel-lam-cos.1604669/

Then, you just posted a link that shows Elmax, run harder, is still more than twice as tough as 440C.

In the post above, you wrote: "I could believe someone finding Elmax to be marginally more tough than some other stainless PM stainless steels since none of them are particularly tough." Fair enough, but that's what I originally said:Elmax is the toughest of the powder stainless steels other than Vanax SC. If you think Elmax is chippy, as the OP worried, then you'd have to say that all powder stainless steels are chippy, which of course is not true.
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Josey,
You should do some independent testing to verify your statements.

Larrin has done independent charpy testing.

I have done a test with actual knives at great expensive to time and money to account for as many variables I could to the best of my abilities at the time.

Elmax broke the fastest despite being "tougher at higher hardness"



Both of these independent tests are showing Elmax is not as tough as you continously claim in thread after thread.

Your source is from a sales brochure designed to market the steel. The bladehq information is not from testing data but pulled from popular opinons and anecdotal accounts.


I'd like to see YOU prove your statements and less regurgitated information from brochures.

Elmax is not as tough because of the carbide volume. It is detrimental to impact toughness. That is why we see a trend with 5160, S7 and 1V being very very tough. Lower carbide volume.

Third gen powder is a myth. They are the same sized carbides between analogs.

Elmax is a dang fine steel and the TRC knife will be plenty durable but it's not true to say "Elmax is the second toughest PM steel."
 
Twindog said:
As I said, different sources give different information.

Bohler's own data show that Elmax is tougher than M390 -- both of which it makes. M390 will have better wear resistance.

From Bohler: "Internal lab toughness tests have shown that Elmax, even at maximum hardness, outperforms other stainless PM knife grades, regardless of their hardness."
https://www.uddeholm.com/app/uploads/sites/54/2019/02/Sales_Brochure_Uddeholm_HandKnifes.pdf

I find it unlikely that S90V is anywhere near as tough as Elmax.
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You're just wasting your time with them .They make scientific tests with Eveheat oven and temper in toaster oven ... they must be right . What does know Bohler about steel they invented ???? They /Bohler/ lie to the industry around the world , industry which buy tons and tons steel from them ...
 
Natty, the testing In the video was with your favorite process. Vacuum HT.
Natlek said:
You're just wasting your time with them .They make scientific tests with Eveheat oven and temper in toaster oven ... they must be right . What does know Bohler about steel they invented ???? They /Bohler/ lie to the industry around the world , industry which buy tons and tons steel from them ...
Click to expand...
 
DeadboxHero said:
Josey,
You should do some independent testing to verify your statements.

Larrin has done independent charpy testing.

I have done a test with actual knives at great expensive to time and money to account for as many variables I could to the best of my abilities at the time.

Elmax broke the fastest despite being "tougher at higher hardness"



Both of these independent tests are showing Elmax is not as tough as you continously claim in thread after thread.

Your source is from a sales brochure designed to market the steel. The bladehq information is not from testing data but pulled from popular opinons and anecdotal accounts.


I'd like to see YOU prove your statements and less regurgitated information from brochures.

Elmax is not as tough because of the carbide volume. It is detrimental to impact toughness. That is why we see a trend with 5160, S7 and 1V being very very tough. Lower carbide volume.

Third gen powder is a myth. They are the same sized carbides between analogs.

Elmax is a dang fine steel and the TRC knife will be plenty durable but it's not true to say "Elmax is the second toughest PM steel."
Click to expand...


As you know, Bear, I've done a lot of toughness testing using bailing wire. Elmax was a champ. I just did another toughness test with Bluntcut's PSF 27, 3.0HT, and it performed very well, even at high hardness. You know what failed the test miserably? A Bowie made of 5160. Another failure was Bark River's A2 in a giant chopper.

I tested a 5160 axe that failed and an 80CrV2 field knife. Both makers told me the heat treat was bad and replaced those tools for me at no cost. My testing has been pretty good.

The toughness chart that I posted was first posted here by Alpha Knife Supply, which if I remember helped Bohler engineers with the testing.

I posted a statement from Bohler that said its testing showed that Elmax is tougher than other powder stainless steels.

As I mentioned before, different information sources come up with different results. You see that with sharpening results a lot: different testers come to much different results. Larrin debunked some of those claims.
 
DeadboxHero said:
Natty, the testing In the video was with your favorite process. Vacuum HT.
Click to expand...
As I say for me only reliable data are data from Bohler , Crucible , Sandvik ....
And in this topic is relevant only WHAT Fallkniven was done with this two steel and OP that data will get from real user of that both knives...not from some independent charpy test . . . . Sorry :thumbsup:
 
DeadboxHero said:
In the video
Elmax failed at 4 hits
S35VN failed at 7hits
CPM154 failed at 10 hits


"Elmax, even at maximum hardness, outperforms other stainless PM knife grades regardless of their hardness"

Not true,

I put Elmax near maximum hardness, I even gave Elmax a higher 350°f temper. Everything's else was 300°f temper. Elmax STILL failed the fastest when chopping a big nail.
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So this is some kind of proof BBB ? Do you realize that this test is useless ?? It is useless because you HOLD hammer and you HIT steel ....That CPM 154 can failed on FIRST hit on your test do you know that ?
 
That's what I enjoy when having a discussion with you Josey, you do test things to form an opinion and create dialogue with.

The Elmax did best on the bailing wire eh? What was the Elmax Knife?

Twindog said:
As you know, Bear, I've done a lot of toughness testing using bailing wire. Elmax was a champ. I just did another toughness test with Bluntcut's PSF 27, 3.0HT, and it performed very well, even at high hardness. You know what failed the test miserably? A Bowie made of 5160. Another failure was Bark River's A2 in a giant chopper.

I tested a 5160 axe that failed and an 80CrV2 field knife. Both makers told me the heat treat was bad and replaced those tools for me at no cost. My testing has been pretty good.

The toughness chart that I posted was first posted here by Alpha Knife Supply, which if I remember helped Bohler engineers with the testing.

I posted a statement from Bohler that said its testing showed that Elmax is tougher than other powder stainless steels.

As I mentioned before, different information sources come up with different results. You see that with sharpening results a lot: different testers come to much different results. Larrin debunked some of those claims.
Click to expand...
 
DeadboxHero said:
I'll have you hold it next time :D
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You know that I have respect to you and your work , right ? I m car mechanic ...good one :D Sometimes I need to work in middle of nowhere and to change this thing on picture ...I have multiple proper tool for them in my service but sometimes I must use hammer .That MF sometimes get out on first hit with hammer , sometimes I get tired and they don t go out .....and then first light tap with hammer and .....miracle , MF falls out .WHY this is happening ? I think you understand what I m saying .For same reason your test is not valid .I m out , this is no right topic for this .

UhlZq3I.jpg
 
DeadboxHero said:
That's what I enjoy when having a discussion with you Josey, you do test things to form an opinion and create dialogue with.

The Elmax did best on the bailing wire eh? What was the Elmax Knife?
Click to expand...

Elmax didn't do the best, but it did test out very well. It was a custom knife. It came in behind Vanadis 4 Extra and 3V (both Nathan's D3V and Bluntcut's reheat treat of 3V), but well ahead of other steels.

What I really look for is the right balance between strength, toughness, wear resistance, stain resistance and edge stability. Different knives and different tasks require a different balance of properties. Elmax is well balanced for an EDC.

Russian Knives did a poll here to see what people's experiences have been between Elmax and M390. Bohler says Elmax will be tougher, and M390 will hold an edge better. Russian Knives found members here in agreement with Bohler's assessment:

TO CONCLUDE, both are definitely super steels and can be the best steel depends on what you will be using it for. We ran a poll on BladeForums.com with this question and the results are very interesting. ELMAX looks more promising, easier to sharpen with the excellent edge retention and "toughness" for the practical knife users. When you need to use and abuse your knife - ELMAX will stand slightly better than M390. But perfectly sharpened M390 will hold the edge and CUT perfectly for the longest time if maintained properly.

Considering the steel’s power is good and wise but keep in mind that the blade’s steel is not everything.

https://russianknives.com/blogs/news/elmax-vs-m390​
 
Is the testing repeatable?
What was the geometry of the knife

Twindog said:
Elmax didn't do the best, but it did test out very well. It was a custom knife. It came in behind Vanadis 4 Extra and 3V (both Nathan's D3V and Bluntcut's reheat treat of 3V), but well ahead of other steels.

What I really look for is the right balance between strength, toughness, wear resistance, stain resistance and edge stability. Different knives and different tasks require a different balance of properties. Elmax is well balanced for an EDC.

Russian Knives did a poll here to see what people's experiences have been between Elmax and M390. Bohler says Elmax will be tougher, and M390 will hold an edge better. Russian Knives found members here in agreement with Bohler's assessment:

TO CONCLUDE, both are definitely super steels and can be the best steel depends on what you will be using it for. We ran a poll on BladeForums.com with this question and the results are very interesting. ELMAX looks more promising, easier to sharpen with the excellent edge retention and "toughness" for the practical knife users. When you need to use and abuse your knife - ELMAX will stand slightly better than M390. But perfectly sharpened M390 will hold the edge and CUT perfectly for the longest time if maintained properly.

Considering the steel’s power is good and wise but keep in mind that the blade’s steel is not everything.

https://russianknives.com/blogs/news/elmax-vs-m390​
Click to expand...
 
DeadboxHero said:
Is the testing repeatable?
What was the geometry of the knife
Click to expand...

I varied the geometry and could easily see a big difference between a 30 degree inclusive edge and a 40 degree inclusive edge on the same steel blade, but I could not quantify it. I could see a big difference between certain steels (V4E and A2), but, again, I could not quantify the difference. I could not see a difference between V4E and 3V, but I know that 3V should be tougher.

It's like having two balls, and one is 30 percent bouncier than the other. If you throw them both against a wall a few times, you'll easily discover which ball is bouncier. But you won't be able to say it's 30 percent bouncier.
 
What was the bte, grind angle, spine thickness, hardness?


Twindog said:
I varied the geometry and could easily see a big difference between a 30 degree inclusive edge and a 40 degree inclusive edge on the same steel blade, but I could not quantify it. I could see a big difference between certain steels (V4E and A2), but, again, I could not quantify the difference. I could not see a difference between V4E and 3V, but I know that 3V should be tougher.

It's like having two balls, and one is 30 percent bouncier than the other. If you throw them both against a wall a few times, you'll easily discover which ball is bouncier. But you won't be able to say it's 30 percent bouncier.
Click to expand...
 
DeadboxHero said:
Is the testing repeatable?
What was the geometry of the knife
Click to expand...
DeadboxHero , 'one ''elmax'' swallow doesn't make a summer'......according to personal experience (elmax vs. M390) I am closer to the Russian position on this comparison ;)
After all it's up to the users .... I really have a lot of them who are extra happy with elmax .... cutting, sharpening etc.:) and not so happy with the M390 especially for sharpening ..... it plays a lot of user experience and knowledge ;)
 
The new Fallkniven A1X looks really nice. It’s about 1/4” at the spine and offers the Cos steel. The sheath looks slightly different than the standard zytel. The rubber scales are removable. It’s under $300 to boot.

While I like my A1 pro, and love the Cos steel, I find the Pro to be too thick at the spine. This new model looks solid.
 
Gearo said:
Hi there. I'm about to get one of those. For the past four weeks. Before that I've read everything I could get my hands on considering the steels, heat treatment and general knife construction, but that seemed to only make things worse:D So please, I need help - what are your experiences, thaughts, opinions about the knives/steels, what are the main advantages/disadvantages (which one is better for what activities) etc. Which one would you get yourself and why?
I'm leaving out the details about the exact intended usage in order to try and start a more general discussion. In my humble opinion, these could be the "best" knives in this category, so I'm kind of surprised there isn't more threads like this already.
Thanks!
Greetings from Vienna, Austria
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https://youtu.be/CKtLBtt5PZA

The A1 is a tested and proven knife. No Elmax knife in the world (thinner than 1/2”) can take the kind of abuse this Falkniven can. Just buy the damn A1!:D
 
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