Fallkniven F1: Was the change to laminated blades justified?

[nozh2002]

"Warikomi" or sandwich laminations like those under discussion here originated by putting hard white or blue steel cores inside stainless wrappers in order to get the edge holding of the carbon steel along with the corrosion resistance of stainless. The lamination also improves toughness as mentioned above since white and blue steel are fairly brittle. As the harder "exotic" stainless steels were developed, manufacturers began using those in place of the carbon steels to reduce chipping. We now have stainless cores in the warikomi sandwiches that are as hard as the original carbon steels.

Some of the very exotic steels (ZDP as an example) are expensive and in limited supply so laminating does effect a meaningful cost savings as mentioned above. Why laminate VG-10? Good question but very likely it is because of tradition or simply a change in steel suppliers. Tradition is strong among the Japanese. Or it might be simply that the production line does it so they just use it. I doubt there is a meaningful cost savings as there would be with a more expensive steel. I doubt that the improvement in toughness, while real, would be terribly important either. Most likely tradition and/or marketing are at the root of it all.

I think it is originated way before stainless steel was invented and Higonokami knives great example of this. In Japan all knives laminated as well as it was in Europe and steel is in Scandinavia. Most likely it is because of the cost of good steel 200 years ago especially in Japan - search fo Tatar method to see how it may be expensive. And sides on this blades are raw iron - very corrosive - It corrode right on my eyes while I sharpen it on water stone!

After this I think such property as increased toughness etc follows as a bonus.

Now it is more traditions - G-Sakai make SRS15 laminated blade for Japan market and for US market they made SRS15 solid blade. Both has similar price and both excellent knives.

I think Crucible which having hard time to sell super steels to US manufacturers should follow same way and produce laminated blanks with CPM 10V 9V 15V in core with some soft grindable sides.

Thanks, Vassili.

P.S. 2 Ultraman
On the photo it is not technically caviar, but salmon eggs. In Russia caviar called "Black Ikra" and salmon eggs - "Red Ikra", both quite valued as delicacy. But here in US salmon eggs are not considered as an food, but fish bait (they do not prepare it in salt here). In Japan were this picture taken - Yokohama Tower, salmon eggs called Ikura and widely available in any supermarket and cheap. I take advantage of this while I was in Japan...

 

[EdgeOn]

I think it is originated way before stainless steel was invented and Higonokami knives great example of this. In Japan all knives laminated as well as it was in Europe and steel is in Scandinavia. Most likely it is because of the cost of good steel 200 years ago especially in Japan - search fo Tatar method to see how it may be expensive. And sides on this blades are raw iron - very corrosive - It corrode right on my eyes while I sharpen it on water stone!

...

To be accurate, the kasumi construction is a two ply not a three ply lamination. The iron is on the outside of the blade (facing away from the user) and the steel in on the inside (facing toward the user.) Both the iron and the white or blue steel will corrode easily as you discovered. Blue steel will corrode more slowly because it has a little chromium in the alloy.

All hand forged knives are not laminated in Japan. Many are made from pure steel (honyaki method) and hand forged with no laminations.

Knifemaking in Japan is an old and well perfected craft. The Japanese have always made superior cutlery and they still do.

 

[nozh2002]

To be accurate, the kasumi construction is a two ply not a three ply lamination. The iron is on the outside of the blade (facing away from the user) and the steel in on the inside (facing toward the user.) Both the iron and the white or blue steel will corrode easily as you discovered. Blue steel will corrode more slowly because it has a little chromium in the alloy.

All hand forged knives are not laminated in Japan. Many are made from pure steel (honyaki method) and hand forged with no laminations.

Knifemaking in Japan is an old and well perfected craft. The Japanese have always made superior cutlery and they still do.

Well I have different observation.

Two ply is not usual Japanese knives but cooking knives where ther try to make them as thin as possible and as easy to sharpen as possible, but all knives there have two bevels and 3 layers of steel.

Not all hand forged knives are laminated - higonokami for example, is hand forged and laminated you may also check Kenetsune as well as many handmade Japanese knives in www.dick.biz.

I have Yanagiba handmade and laminated. Also Hitachi-Musachi...

For sure it is most likely vise versa and most knives there hand made or not made laminated. At least this is what I see when I was in Japan. The fact that there is no single beveled knives (not kitchen) did surprise me - finally shop attendant in Kukihide found me some special woodworking knife. But all other knives was actually convex edged and laminated or suminogashi.

This is Shirogami or white steel which is bad translation - it is literally - whitepaper steel and correct translation is - white label steel:

C=1.3
Mn=0.2
P=0.025
Si=0.1
S=0.04

This is Aogami or blue label steel:

C=1.3
Mn=0.2
P=0.025
Si=0.1
S=0.04
Cr=0.2-0.5%
W=1-1.5%

Content of cromium here insignificant and will be all utilized by high carbon content and in this case add few hardness. It has W in it which allows Japanese makers be bit more relaxed with HT - it has wider temperature interval for Austenizing then Shirogami. Traditionally Japanese craftsman check temperature on his eye, so it is easy to miss and fail, so Aogami makes it easyer.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[Ultraman]

P.S. 2 Ultraman
On the photo it is not technically caviar, but salmon eggs. In Russia caviar called "Black Ikra" and salmon eggs - "Red Ikra", both quite valued as delicacy. But here in US salmon eggs are not considered as an food, but fish bait (they do not prepare it in salt here). In Japan were this picture taken - Yokohama Tower, salmon eggs called Ikura and widely available in any supermarket and cheap. I take advantage of this while I was in Japan...

Good to know - thanks again! I'm glad I asked.