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False edge for the A2 Steel MPK?

M

missionknives

Joined
Oct 3, 1998
Messages
81
I am very happy with how these first steel MPKs turned out.

The first production run of these knives include false edges and are built exactly like the titanium MPK. I do have one question concerning false edges...

Looking at Busse and MadDog, most of their knives do not include a false edge. What are your thoughts? Should Mission continue with false edges for the production steel MPKs, or remove the false edge on future production runs?

What do you think? Your comments and feedback are very important to us.

Thanks again to all for your continued support.

Sincerely,
Rick
 
Rick, I honestly don't see a need for a false edge, except that it lightens the knife slightly, but it also takes material away from were you may want it for strength. I would myself prefer a non-false edge blade, unless the false edge was small. I prefer that extra weight at the end of the knife for heavy duty chores and for the strength. IMO
 
False edges enhance penetration, but compromise tip strength. The MPK is the flagship hard-use fixed-blade in your lineup, and the knife that you'll use first to go head-to-head with Busse and Mad Dog. People will presumeably use the knife hard, including prying with the tip and other abuse; and reviewers will be doing their standard "slam the point into a tree then snap it out" which the Busse and Mad Dog's have already passed. Your false edge might give.

For that smaller fixed-blade fighter in your lineup, I think a false edge is fine. For the MPK, I'd consider removing it.

Marketing-wise, of course, false edges look really cool
smile.gif
Tough choice!

Joe
jat@cup.hp.com
 
If its a utility knife then leave out the false edge because as well as the reasons that Joe pointed out, my personal preference is to have more weight up front.

-Cliff
 
As I stated in my e-mail to your survey, a false edge is neither needed nor desired on a rough use utility blade. If you wanted to have a nice cosmetic bevel like that on the EDI Genesis I folder, that'd be okay.

-=[Bob]=-
 
Rick,

As I indicated in my Email reply, aren't you the knifemaker?
I mean, making the customer happy is great, but shouldn't you just build the best damn knife you can and then try to sell it at a fair price?

Maybe a little less worrying about what everyone else is doing and what is going to be "popular", would allow you to concentrate on making the best knives in the industry and then people will be asking us if they should or should not follow your lead.

Just a thought.

------------------
-Essayons

[This message has been edited by RJP (edited 12 February 1999).]
 
RJP

I think Rick values the judgements of most of us on the forums because we are more or less experts at knives compared to the general knife population. And Frankly, I see a genuine interest in bringing a product that had imput from the end users. If you don't care, then you don't need to answer and you can buy a big mac with pickles wether you like them or not. Enjoy.
 
No need to get defensive on Rick's behalf, Cobalt. He Emailed Me asking my preferrence and then I noticed he is also asking for opinions here. While many people here might feel that they are "more or less knife experts".. I do not. I preface most of my posts on the knife forums with the fact that I am not... yet I got asked for my opinion.

Personally, I prefer that someone make the best knife they can for a given purpose and then tell me what makes it the best. As a non-expert, I am smart enough to know that I can't make the decision as well as a qualified knife maker on the construction of a knife.

If I want a custom knife, I'll call a knifemaker and tell him what I want and he can tell me how much to pay him.

I thought that feedback from a self-proclaimed-non-expert would be helpful to Rick.

Should his knife have a strong backbone or not?... As a potential customer, I think he should decide that. If the decision is based on the construction of someone else's knife... well, why not just buy the other knife? If the construction is based on the preferrence of this forum or his mailing list.. then he may have a hard time developing a larger mailing list.

------------------
-Essayons

btw, I HATE Pickles on my MickyDees, but sometimes you just gotta pick 'em off, instead of wasting time waiting for a custom burger.

[This message has been edited by RJP (edited 12 February 1999).]
 
Dear Rick, I received your email on the topic but will give my opinion here.

Having no false edge does merit the opinion of greater strength. However, I have handled the original Ti MPK, and your false edge is rather small as compared to some (i.e. Randall's #14 for example). Without a doubt, A2 is a strong steel, and IMHO, I don't think your current false edge design on the MPK will sacrifice that much tip strength.

But, don't worry, with or without the false edge, I will be adding your A2 MPK to my LBV as soon as you let me know they're ready for delivery
smile.gif


Thank's again for such great products and customer service.

Dave
 
Greetings,

Mission does have a list of those who email us and we use it to ask for input and announce product. It appears that many on our email list also frequent this forum. But, let me say first that the reason I ask for input is because most that respond on this forum are indeed experts in the field. Yes, I design all of the Mission Knives products and we build them, but I really do value all of the input we receive.

Building the best knife I can.... part of this process, I believe, is called marketing analysis. I am not an expert in many fields, but, I believe that I can make up for any lack of experience by asking the experts what their experiences have been. For example, Joe T. has probably tested and evaluated more knives than most of us have even picked up. I look to Joe as an expert in design, human factors engineering, blade grinds, pros and cons, etc.

A false edge was required on the MPK-Ti, and because of titaniums strength and ductility, a false edge took nothing away from the blade. In fact, with over 3,000 MPKs shipped and in-use by militaries around the world, I have only heard of one that was broken, and that was with the help of a 250 Ton press at NAVEODTECHCTR.

Anyway, I am not quite sure how a steel knife will perform - hence the question and feedback request from those of you that have more experience with a large steel knife than me. Believe me, we want to build the knife right.

The last thing I want to happen is to get my ego in the way and build a knife that no one wants.

What useful purpose would that serve?

Sincerely,
Rick
 
Rick,

I see your point. I didn't take your survey as a marketing tool, I took it as a design tool.

With the popularity of this forum, certain magazines and of "tactical" knives in general, more and more non-experts like myself are potentially in the market for your product. If Porsche went down to the local Pep-Boys and asked a bunch of people whether to use one large or two small turbo chargers on their next $100,000 sports car, I'd lose a lot of respect for Porsche, if you catch my drift.
 
I frankly find it refreshing that a company principal respects his potential customers enough to send an email requesting their input. How much more enjoyable than receiving spam.
I am evidently in the minority, as I felt having the false edge ,with the proviso it did not sustantively decrease tip strength,would provide a "back cut" option on what is named a Multi Purpose Knife.
I look forward to Rick and Company vigorously testing both versions of his upcoming Mission MPK in A2 tool steel,and giving us the full scoop after a battery of tests. Relative tip strength, deformation under load, with figures, etc.
We all should find it most interesting.
Stay safe and all the best, Phil <----<<



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[This message has been edited by Phil Squire (edited 12 February 1999).]
 
I would suggest you offer some in all configurations.

Some people will want the false edge, some won't. Sometimes this choice is based on a sound understanding of the end line users (ELU) needs and sometimes its just a fact of local laws or the "WOW - what a cool ...." factor.

This questions strikes me as one very similar to the "do I want serrations (combo-edge) or a plain edge? Most "novices" I encounter opt for the combo-edge only later to realize that they prefer the utility of a plain edge. With a lot of experience and realizing what you actually need your knife to do, the desire for a combo-edge in some cases returns.

Hopefully, you will be able to do small "test" runs to put in the marketplace to see how well they sell. The other knifemakers mentioned have modified their lines over time to suit the marketplace with great success. I think will find following a similar path will yield the results you desire.

Sid


[This message has been edited by Sid Post (edited 12 February 1999).]
 
RJP, And if Mission went down to the local mall's knife store and asked passerby about how to design his knives I'd loose a lot of respect for them. However, this forum is not the mall or pep boys with a bunch of disinterested people who do not research about topics. I am a knife user. I have enough knives that I could carry a different one every day for a couple of months and never see the same one. I'm sure there is many people like that in here. To compare the people in here with pep boys shoppers is to say that we all talk out of our A holes. Granted, we may not be experts, but, what would you consider an expert. I know knife makers who know only their product and have never even seen other well known makers knives. These same knife makers know little to nothing about blade materials, yet you would label them experts. There are many "non-experts" in here who know a considerable amount about many knives and many different materials yet you would label them non-experts because they don't make knives.

I'm not getting defensive, but I feel that your original comment was implying an attitude like--"Gee if you can't decide it for yourself then maybe you don't know what you are doing, and this forum is a waste of time since there is no knowledgeable people in here". Subsequent statements on your part did make it clear that there are no experts in this forum. How do you know that?

The last thing I have to say is that these forums are here for information gathering by all not just non-experts. The old saying "no question is a stupid question" applies here. I'm sure we have all asked questions or made comments that some of us though were stupid or IRRELEVANT, yet we do not act on them. you did..

By the way, they usually put my pickles in with the cheese and it makes it real messy to remove. nuff said. This is all just MHO.
 
Hey guys, look here what are we actually talking about:

http://www.missionknives.com/products/images/mpk_big.jpg

I don't know if all the people giving their comment actually own an MPK, I do. This knife has a straight clip point like some bowies. The question as I understand it, is, shall the clip be sharpened to a false edge or shall it be square like the rest of the spine? The length we are talking about is ca. 2”. That means the material which has to be taken away to yield a sharp false edge is minuscule, and the effect on the tip strength therefore almost non existent. And leaving it square to have more weight up front is really pushing the edge of the envelope of being serious in this matter.

Just take the popular CS Trailmaster as an example. Does anybody actually doubt that the tip is weak and the clip should therefore be square instead of semi-sharpened? Or that it alters the balance? Gimme a break!

In my opinion it’s not a matter of tip strength but of functionality. A false edge should not interfere with the ability to hold the knife on the spine for detailed work or to force it through tougher material with a mallet of bough. With a short false edge like the one under discussion, you won’t have any problems here. The false edge on the clip has a definitive advantage when it comes to penetration and you can use it for whacking tougher stuff without damaging the primary edge.

Under the marketing aspect I would leave the blade design as it is anyway. It is unique, very well done and battle tested. And if someone doesn’t like it, there are plenty of alternatives. Why copying what’s already there?

Therefore: Leave it, as it is.
Ralf
 
Cobalt,

I never said that there were "no" experts here. Just that I know I am not an expert and I was aksed my opinion. I will give youthat I assumed that I am not the only non-expert member. Furthermore, I certainly never implied that everyone here talks out of anything but their keyboards.

A lot of people around here know me and know that I would never come to this forum and make an insulting generalization about the members. Regardless of what words you try to put in my mouth, I doubt that they'll believe I was trying to.

Furthermore, (I hate having to point this stuff out... ) I never said that Rick or his question were stupid or irrelevent. I gave him my opinion. No, I did not check box "A" for false edge nor Box "B" for no false edge. I gave him my honest opinion. I would rather he made what in his opinion is the better version (perhaps, as suggested by another member, after testing) and then I'll decide if I like his knife. I made that suggestion because I respect him enough to figure that he knows better than I do when it comes to the re-design of his knife.

It was you who started the debate on the validity of, and reason for, my answer.

 
RJP

I understand what you are trying to say and that you don't consider yourself an expert. Answer me one uqestion then and this will be the end of it. How many people in your personal life now what you do about types of knives, mateials, things that you have learned from this forum and other sources in your quest for finding a good knife? With the exception of a knifemaker friend of mine, no one that I know has any were near that knowledge. I think you might be more of an expert than you give yourself credit for. Maybe expert is not the right term, more like learned, hows that. In any case, when a question like this comes up, I value every ones comments because there may be something I missed in my thought process which someone did not and I'd bet that is what went through Missions mind. They probably just wanted to see if they had missed anything in their thought process and this is one good place to check it out.

Take care
 
Point taken, around here I am an rank amatuer, but in the real world I guess I know more about knives than your average bell-hop.

All is well.

 
For a heavy duty working knife like the MPK I would have to say go with no false edge for more tip strength.

Sincerely,
Adam
 
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