Recommendation? Fantoni S125V Issues

[marrenmiller]

No idea man. I have a HB03 in M390 love it no issues here with the heat treatment or overheated edge. The S125V being completely different could have been overheated during grinding given its tough to machine.

Here is their heat treat specs for it if you’ve not saw already.

To yield the maximum performance from the alloy Fantoni utilizes an exacting heat treating process. First the steel is brought up to 2050ºF (1121ºC) (Austenite) with a 15 minute hold to homogenize the material. An inert gas quench is executed to avoid surface oxidation. It is then processed through a freezing treatment of -176ºF (-80ºC) for three hours to maximize the transformation from an Austentic to Martensitic phase. Finally two complete tempering procedures bringing the blades up to 356ºF (180ºC) for three hours and back down to room temperature results in the final hardness of 61-62 Rockwell.

I read that before, yeah. This doesn't behave like anything that's anywhere near that hard. I hope I'm wrong but I don't think I am in this case. But that is definitely the right process per AKS to get somewhere in the 62 HRC range.

 

[marrenmiller]

Shawn / Big Brown Bear has done more work with the really high carbide steels than pretty much anyone I know and I seem to recall him talking about S125V. He might be a good person to ask regarding what to expect from that particular steel. I'd recommend Dr. Larrin also depending on if he has done work with S125V. Both are excellent resources if you respect that they don't have unlimited time and resources and have families that rely on them.

From what I've seen based on everything they and others have done, S125V should be capable of extreme edge retention, and should even manage to hold a great fine edge given a good heat treatment. After all, carbides or not, this steel still should be 61-62 HRC and shouldn't lose a shaving edge this fast. And even after 30 or so feet of cardboard, it noticeably loses bite when cutting paper.

Larrin already commented that he has had no issues deburring the S125V in his test knife.

 

[Twindog]

You might want to send your knife to someone who has a hardness tester. If the hardness isn't within the target range, you could have a heat treat issue.

 

[Sharp & Fiery]

From what I've seen based on everything they and others have done, S125V should be capable of extreme edge retention, and should even manage to hold a great fine edge given a good heat treatment. After all, carbides or not, this steel still should be 61-62 HRC and shouldn't lose a shaving edge this fast. And even after 30 or so feet of cardboard, it noticeably loses bite when cutting paper.

Larrin already commented that he has had no issues deburring the S125V in his test knife.

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[Natlek]

To be honest very high carbide steels are just not designed for super high sharpness jobs like shaving or hair whittling. It may be just the nature of that steel. I'm no expert in all things S125V though. I used to have one of those Fantonis for a short time long ago. Never really used it much.

Joe

I have several knives from M35 and M42 HSS steel in range of 64-68 HRC .I can sharpen them with 800 grit DMT to cut easy toilet paper .They stay shaving sharp for long time .Now , I make small knife from tungsten carbide /80-82HRC/ .....I try everything and I can t sharpen that thing to cut hair .It cut clear phone book paper , receipt paper .....but no way hair on hand...and it is only 1.2mm thick ????

 

[marrenmiller]

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Fixed, thanks for the heads up

 

[BITEME]

They made so few of these you would think they would keep a very close eye on the process....I have one that is super sharp but I haven't used it yet(carried a couple times)
I was under the impression they closed the shop about a year ago ,which would be sad the knife is a real beauty.

 

[marrenmiller]

They made so few of these you would think they would keep a very close eye on the process....I have one that is super sharp but I haven't used it yet(carried a couple times)
I was under the impression they closed the shop about a year ago ,which would be sad the knife is a real beauty.

Well, I'd be curious to see what you think if you ever decide to test it. All I did was perform the same sort of cardboard edge retention testing that I do on other knives, and the results have been consistently appalling.

I honestly haven't seen anyone really do any good testing or even show they've used these things, so for all I know they might all be like this.

 

[dirc]

From what I've seen based on everything they and others have done, S125V should be capable of extreme edge retention, and should even manage to hold a great fine edge given a good heat treatment. After all, carbides or not, this steel still should be 61-62 HRC and shouldn't lose a shaving edge this fast. And even after 30 or so feet of cardboard, it noticeably loses bite when cutting paper.

Larrin already commented that he has had no issues deburring the S125V in his test knife.

I'd like Larrin to chime in on this:
could it just be that s125v is just too brittle to keep a good apex? or maybe the temper temperature didn't get quite high enough so it's more brittle than even s125v should be? I can't think of anything else to explain the poor retention

 

[marrenmiller]

I'd like Larrin to chime in on this:
could it just be that s125v is just too brittle to keep a good apex? or maybe the temper temperature didn't get quite high enough so it's more brittle than even s125v should be? I can't think of anything else to explain the poor retention

one way or another, I'd bet anything the heat treatment is borked. Rather than being too brittle, I'm inclined to think it's too soft based on what's happening to it, but I can't verify that without sending it to someone.

 

[Kevin Wilkins]

The Fantoni company is still in business as far as I know...however, I has just boiled down to Mr. Fantoni and he ships sporadically, only whats on his table at the moment, and as a retail store you cannot order anything specific.
I was just chatting with a friend of mine last weekend about this who owns a knife shop and receives Fantoni knives.
Hope this helps a bit.

Fantoni Knives is closed and gone. They are no longer in business and their company in Maniago was shuttered some time ago as already posted in this thread. The elder Mr. Renzo Fantoni was over 80 years old and still working until he unfortunately became very ill and was forced to retire. His son, who also helped with the knife business, decided to liquidate and close it down. I don't know who ended up with their remaining inventory, but there are certainly some dealers who still may have knives to sell. There will not be anymore and I do not think any company is handling any type of authorized service for existing products. I worked with Renzo for many years and consider him a friend as well as business associate. I have not been able to find out how the Fantonis have fared during this Covid crisis. I hope they are OK.

 

[BITEME]

Here's my results, catching fingernail and shaving arm hair before I cut the cardboard, cut small pile still catching fingernails and shaving arm hair the edge is about 20 degrees each side,
I love the way it cuts,I have been reluctant to use it but thanks for the opportunity ,s125v was a steel i was chasing for quite a while kind of over that phase now but the steel is definitely cuts.
I had the 02 version the smallest one, with a black blade and I sold it ,still crying about that and that was about 7 yrs .ago,recently spoke with the guy I sold it to and offered to buy it back ,and he said no thank you

 

[Sharp & Fiery]

Fantoni Knives is closed and gone. They are no longer in business and their company in Maniago was shuttered some time ago as already posted in this thread. The elder Mr. Renzo Fantoni was over 80 years old and still working until he unfortunately became very ill and was forced to retire. His son, who also helped with the knife business, decided to liquidate and close it down. I don't know who ended up with their remaining inventory, but there are certainly some dealers who still may have knives to sell. There will not be anymore and I do not think any company is handling any type of authorized service for existing products. I worked with Renzo for many years and consider him a friend as well as business associate. I have not been able to find out how the Fantonis have fared during this Covid crisis. I hope they are OK.

Thank you so much for that info, Mr. Wilkins.
I apologize for my non-current information. My friend must be ordering from a distributor who still has stock.
It’s very sad to hear about the confirmation of closure from someone like yourself. I also hope they are doing well amid the craziness that is Covid.
I wish you well, and thank you for the correction.

 

[marrenmiller]

Here's my results, catching fingernail and shaving arm hair before I cut the cardboard, cut small pile still catching fingernails and shaving arm hair the edge is about 20 degrees each side,
I love the way it cuts,I have been reluctant to use it but thanks for the opportunity ,s125v was a steel i was chasing for quite a while kind of over that phase now but the steel is definitely cuts.
I had the 02 version the smallest one, with a black blade and I sold it ,still crying about that and that was about 7 yrs .ago,recently spoke with the guy I sold it to and offered to buy it back ,and he said no thank you View attachment 1421124

That isn't really a lot of cardboard for such an extreme alloy, but mine flat-out cannot do even that much.

Did you find it difficult to sharpen/deburr?

 

[BITEME]

I have never sharpened it ,its really the first time I've used it - some other steels aus8/154cm I usually will feel a very slight dulling after cutting a similar ammount of cardboard this didn't have that ,honestly I could have went quite a bit more it was flying through ,but your point was that yours was dulling very quickly after a few cuts?as you know shaving sharpening isn't it's strong point, working edge is where it excels.
Over the years I've quit chasing these supersteels because I prefer a keen edge over working edge but I do still love me some maxamet, et.al

 

[marrenmiller]

I have never sharpened it ,its really the first time I've used it - some other steels aus8/154cm I usually will feel a very slight dulling after cutting a similar ammount of cardboard this didn't have that ,honestly I could have went quite a bit more it was flying through ,but your point was that yours was dulling very quickly after a few cuts?as you know shaving sharpening isn't it's strong point, working edge is where it excels.
Over the years I've quit chasing these supersteels because I prefer a keen edge over working edge but I do still love me some maxamet, et.al

Thanks for the help.

It's been demonstrated time and time again that a properly heat-treated supersteel at 62 HRC should hold a shaving edge for a while, regardless of how much carbide is in it, as the matrix holding the carbides is still ~62 HRC. S90V/S110V doesn't degrade into a working edge after a few feet of cardboard, and this shouldn't either.

 

[Twindog]

one way or another, I'd bet anything the heat treatment is borked. Rather than being too brittle, I'm inclined to think it's too soft based on what's happening to it, but I can't verify that without sending it to someone.

Your knife is spec'd at 61-62 Rc. If you have a knife with a known hardness a bit less than that, you can take off the scales and try to scratch the back of the blade with the point of the softer knife. Do it discretely in an area that is not visible when the knife is put together.

If the knife with a hardness of 60 Rc or less can scratch your S125V and the S125V cannot scratch it, you will know it's too soft.

I had a custom heat-treated blade made from a super tough steel -- A8(mod) -- that didn't perform well. It actually chipped and cracked. The maker said he heat treated it to 60.5 Rc. But using the tip of a knife with a softer steel, I could easily scratch the A8 blade, but not vice versa. My blade was already ruined when I tested it, so I didn't care about scratching it, but you can try to scratch it where it will not show.

You can also buy hardness files, but they tend to cover a wide range. However, one set on Amazon has a file for 60 Rc. That should not be able to scratch your S125V.

 

[marrenmiller]

Your knife is spec'd at 61-62 Rc. If you have a knife with a known hardness a bit less than that, you can take off the scales and try to scratch the back of the blade with the point of the softer knife. Do it discretely in an area that is not visible when the knife is put together.

If the knife with a hardness of 60 Rc or less can scratch your S125V and the S125V cannot scratch it, you will know it's too soft.

I had a custom heat-treated blade made from a super tough steel -- A8(mod) -- that didn't perform well. It actually chipped and cracked. The maker said he heat treated it to 60.5 Rc. But using the tip of a knife with a softer steel, I could easily scratch the A8 blade, but not vice versa. My blade was already ruined when I tested it, so I didn't care about scratching it, but you can try to scratch it where it will not show.

You can also buy hardness files, but they tend to cover a wide range. However, one set on Amazon has a file for 60 Rc. That should not be able to scratch your S125V.

Very good idea! I'll do that when I'm back home. I have quite a few knives that perform like they're in the 60-62 range that I can use.

 

[brownshoe]

Too bad about Fantoni. They made some classic knives over the years.