Farriers rasp knife?

[51 Bravo]

has anyone made a knife from a farriers rasp? I know they can be junk steel or case hardened. The two that were given to me are a Nicholson and a Save Edge which I have read good things about both. It looks like the difficulty comes in getting it to harden. I have read many things about using water, motor oil, salt water etc. I have also read to not anneal it at all: just grind it as is being careful on the temps while doing so. I'd really like to make a nice camp knife for my buddy who gave them to me but don't want to put a bunch of work into it if its a bad idea. Any advice is greatly appreciated!

 

[bldmkr1075]

I'm not a pro but I do have experience in this area so fo what it's worth here we go.

As for the files those are good ones. Should do fine.
As for not annealing, unless you have an awsome 2 x 72 grinder and plan on burning up a few carbide bits it's going to be tough.
I made a dozen or so file knives and had good results quenching in canola oil. Heat to just past magnetic, hold for a couple of minutes and quench.

Hope this helps.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

 

[J. Doyle]

Also for what it's worth.....I had two Nicholson farrier's rasps and a Simmonds farrier's rasp, all three old...from the 70's the old guy I got them from told me. All three were case hardened pieces of junk. I discovered this after I spent a lot of time forging, grinding and MULTIPLE attempts at heat treating in two different shops with multiple methods, temperatures and quenchants. They were no good.

The moral of the story is that just because it says 'Nicholson' or 'Simmonds' or whatever else and is old(er).....doesn't mean it's good, in spite of what many people claim.

 

[BBuser]

How hard does steel need to be to file horse hooves?

Horse shoers use an interesting crooked knife to scrape the sole and clean out around the frog.

Edit: It's called a hoof knife.

 

[Jim_P]

You should check out Michael Morris knives, he makes all of his knives from files and rasps.

http://www.michaelmorrisknives.com/

 

[PaMtnBkr]

I was given a bunch of Mercury brand farriers rasps and I was curious if the steel was any good? I snapped one off to look at the grain structure and they were super fine velvety gray inside all the way through. Hard as hell to break. Is it safe to assume that this is decent steel based on how hard it was to break and the grain structure?

 

[Jason Fry]

I'm with Doyle. It's going to be trial and error, regardless of what the rasp says. If you get one that hardens, they make really good looking knives. If you get one that doesn't, they're a huge waste of time, and time is money.

 

[Craig Daniel]

To test heat the files to 1500 and hold a few minutes to heat thoroughly, Quench in water then place them in a vise. Leave about 2 inches above vise jaws and clamp a crescent wrench over the file and break it off, If it snaps you have high carbon steel but if it bends it is only case hardened. This procedure was given to me from a well known Master smith and has worked well for me, Good luck.

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

I made some rasp hawks from a bucket of old farrier rasps. I found about half the rasps were case hardened. Since I welded in a bit from an old buggy spring, it didn't really matter. For a knife it would have been a failure.

 

[Cody Hofsommer]

How hard does steel need to be to file horse hooves?

Horse shoers use an interesting crooked knife to scrape the sole and clean out around the frog.

Edit: It's called a hoof knife.

The rasp is the most expensive tool we farriers use. Our $300 nippers last a year or two, the $20 rasp a week, maybe. We look for the best cutting, longest lasting rasps we can find. We also use rasps to cut steel, both cold and hot. They can take some steel of when hot rasping! Yes , we use a hoof knife, not sure what that has to do with the post, and the one you showed is a loop knife, it the work horse hoof knife.

I was given a bunch of Mercury brand farriers rasps and I was curious if the steel was any good? I snapped one off to look at the grain structure and they were super fine velvety gray inside all the way through. Hard as hell to break. Is it safe to assume that this is decent steel based on how hard it was to break and the grain structure?

I use mercury rasps by the box, and use them for other things when they are dead. I haven't yet seen a case hardened one

To test heat the files to 1500 and hold a few minutes to heat thoroughly, Quench in water then place them in a vise. Leave about 2 inches above vise jaws and clamp a crescent wrench over the file and break it off, If it snaps you have high carbon steel but if it bends it is only case hardened. This procedure was given to me from a well known Master smith and has worked well for me, Good luck.

Sounds like a good check to me.

 

[Mike Read]

I did some basic testing with a few farriers rasps a few years ago, this is what I found at the time:

I took 4 different makes of 14 inch farriers rasps and measured the Rc at the tip end and the handle end:

Save Edge 66 Tip 61 Handle
Bassoli 65 44
Mercury 55 41
Hellier 44 39

Next I sawed off the tangs. Except for the Mercury on which I used a cutting disk, the tangs were all soft enough to be hacksawed easily. I used the tangs as I wont need them to make knives and any case hardening is less likely to be present. I filed groves in each tang for identification and ground the surface of each side to remove any case hardened layer.

First I heated them to 825C, soaked for 10 minutes and quenched in oil. Hardness was as below

Save Edge 46
Bassoli 56
Mercury 23
Hellier 18

I then re-heated them all to 840C and quenched in water. Hardness was:

Save Edge 56 - 63
Bassoli 61 - 63
Mercury 50 - 56
Hellier 42 - 58

As you can see I did not get consistent hardness throughout each test piece. I am not sure why this is but I did not take to much time getting a good finish on the test pieces and they were just chucked in a bucket of water all together so quench was probably far from even.​

I have made decent knives from the Save Edge and Bassoli Rasps but I do not anneal and re-harden them. I temper to the required hardness and grind them in this state. If you have a decent grinder this is OK except when you come to drill pin holes in the tang. If you stick to small pins 1/8" carbide bits are not that expensive and will go through a hard file OK. Grind off the teeth where you are going to drill otherwise they can deflect and shatter your carbide drill.

Hope this helps, file knives are great fun - hope yours comes out OK

 

[51 Bravo]

Thanks everyone for the replies! :thumbup:

 

[Detex]

I have a couple Michael Morris knives, I second the fact that you can make great knives from some of these files.

 

[BBuser]

The rasp is the most expensive tool we farriers use. Our $300 nippers last a year or two, the $20 rasp a week, maybe. We look for the best cutting, longest lasting rasps we can find. We also use rasps to cut steel, both cold and hot. They can take some steel of when hot rasping! Yes , we use a hoof knife, not sure what that has to do with the post, and the one you showed is a loop knife, it the work horse hoof knife.


I use mercury rasps by the box, and use them for other things when they are dead. I haven't yet seen a case hardened one



Sounds like a good check to me.

Interesting. The knife was the only one that came up in a quick search. I'm used to the type of shoeing on race horses, non harness. The little looped knife that cleans frog area is interesting. Must require a file to sharpen.

 

[jphillipsknives]

Also for what it's worth.....I had two Nicholson farrier's rasps and a Simmonds farrier's rasp, all three old...from the 70's the old guy I got them from told me. All three were case hardened pieces of junk. I discovered this after I spent a lot of time forging, grinding and MULTIPLE attempts at heat treating in two different shops with multiple methods, temperatures and quenchants. They were no good.

The moral of the story is that just because it says 'Nicholson' or 'Simmonds' or whatever else and is old(er).....doesn't mean it's good, in spite of what many people claim.

And the name actually does mean there good when it comes to older rasp. Heller is the best, and Nicholson a close second. They are made of the same steel and are consistent especially if from the 70s. If they didn't come out of heat treat correctly then the error was yours, not the rasp. I have made at least 50 Knives from Heller and Nicholson rasp (From the 70s, up to brand new) They ALL came out of the final heat treat almost perfect.. Stop blaming failure on the materials and learn from your mistakes.. You are absolutely wrong about this

 

[jphillipsknives]

I did some basic testing with a few farriers rasps a few years ago, this is what I found at the time:

I took 4 different makes of 14 inch farriers rasps and measured the Rc at the tip end and the handle end:​

​

Save Edge 66 Tip 61 Handle​

Bassoli 65 44​

Mercury 55 41​

Hellier 44 39​

​

Next I sawed off the tangs. Except for the Mercury on which I used a cutting disk, the tangs were all soft enough to be hacksawed easily. I used the tangs as I wont need them to make knives and any case hardening is less likely to be present. I filed groves in each tang for identification and ground the surface of each side to remove any case hardened layer.​

​

First I heated them to 825C, soaked for 10 minutes and quenched in oil. Hardness was as below​

​

Save Edge 46​

Bassoli 56​

Mercury 23​

Hellier 18​

​

I then re-heated them all to 840C and quenched in water. Hardness was:​

​

Save Edge 56 - 63​

Bassoli 61 - 63​

Mercury 50 - 56​

Hellier 42 - 58​

​

As you can see I did not get consistent hardness throughout each test piece. I am not sure why this is but I did not take to much time getting a good finish on the test pieces and they were just chucked in a bucket of water all together so quench was probably far from even.​

I have made decent knives from the Save Edge and Bassoli Rasps but I do not anneal and re-harden them. I temper to the required hardness and grind them in this state. If you have a decent grinder this is OK except when you come to drill pin holes in the tang. If you stick to small pins 1/8" carbide bits are not that expensive and will go through a hard file OK. Grind off the teeth where you are going to drill otherwise they can deflect and shatter your carbide drill.

Hope this helps, file knives are great fun - hope yours comes out OK

Great, detailed info! Thanks man.

 

[J. Doyle]

And the name actually does mean there good when it comes to older rasp. Heller is the best, and Nicholson a close second. They are made of the same steel and are consistent especially if from the 70s. If they didn't come out of heat treat correctly then the error was yours, not the rasp. I have made at least 50 Knives from Heller and Nicholson rasp (From the 70s, up to brand new) They ALL came out of the final heat treat almost perfect.. Stop blaming failure on the materials and learn from your mistakes.. You are absolutely wrong about this

A couple things:

1. I don't really post in this section anymore but since you dug up a 5 year old post to basically call me a liar, I'll make an exception.

2. I'm glad you used one of your total of 5 posts to open up this old thread and tell me how wrong I am. I'm happy for you that you made "at least 50" rasp knives that were "almost perfect". Good for you. I had Nicholson and Simmons files from the 70's that wouldn't harden. They were junk. And I and the Smith helping me both knew what we were doing and had excellent control over our heat treating process and temperatures.

3. The other post you just quoted in this thread that you said was "great detailed info".......did you even read that? He basically said he got inconsistent hardness and it was more or less a crap shoot. And Heller, the brand you said was the "best", were actually the worst in his hardness tests. Is that what you meant by "almost perfect"?

How about instead of digging up 5 year old threads that nobody cares about because any serious knifemaker has moved way past mystery steel for their blades, you just go back to making your amazing rasp knives and leave the rest of us to wallow in the miseries of known alloys and consistent results.

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

OK, John, I think you made you point.

J.Phillips, I think your resurrection of this old thread was not well thought out. The discussion of files and rasps is a common topic, and the general consensus is they are OK for fun, and pretty much always a crap shoot. They do make nice looking san-mai or rasp hawks with a piece of high carbon steel as the cutting edge.

I'm glad you had a good result with your rasp knives, but it is pretty much impossible to make a blanket statement that all of a certain brand are good steel for knives. The results of dozens of experienced folks says they vary, even among the same brand.

Just for your FYI, John Doyle knows his way around a forge and anvil pretty well. I would think a failure due to materials was the likely cause of his results more than a failure of skill.

 

[Shermjazz]

I've also been interested in making knives from rasps. They look really cool and interesting. I've mostly been using O1, 1080, and CPM-154. Rasps offer a nice break and figured there was something interesting to learn.

A local farrier gave me several 14" Bellotas (made in Spain). I made two knives and used a carbon steel method for heat treat. I tested them. Hardness was 37. Then I tested the file before heat treat. Also 37. I tried O1 heat treating. Also 37. Then a friend suggested heat to 1700 F, hold for a couple of minutes, remove and it drop to about 400 F. Repeat three times and then quench. Temper at 400 F for one hour. Using this last method I got hardness of 55.

I assume what's happening here is that these rasps are case hardened. I've searched all over the internet to get the specs on these rasps. No straight answers. I called an Ohio company that distributes Save Edge rasps. The guy I talked wouldn't tell me about the steel in the rasps (some sort of trade secret) but said their rasps are the hardest in the industry (I've ordered two just to check). He did tell me that he's confident that all rasps made worldwide are case hardened.

That's my report.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/bek6pFwotHxDJBtE8

 

[K.B. Knifeworks]

One of the first knives I made was out of an old rasp. It looked awesome but never hardened. I guess it was good practice but a bummer it is basically just a paperweight.