Fehrman 3v compared to Nathan's 3v

rodriguez7

rodriguez7

Gila wilderness knife works
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Feb 1, 2009
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Just curious how these would stack up, Nathan the machinests 3v you tube test was impressive. Fehrman is some of the best 3v I have used, just seems to keep cutting. This was started in the survive sub forum, figured it would be cool to talk about, since 3v's heat treat seems to keep advancing. Not meant as a bashing thread!! I would love to see Nathan test a fehrman.
 
It would be an interesting conversation, but we'd need some information. Ankerson tested one Big Chris knife in 3V and it did well, but wear resistance is not really the key attribute of 3V -- toughness is where it shines. And when you combine 3V's extraordinary toughness with its very good wear resistance, it becomes an great steel.
 
From my own experience with Fehrman the edge holding is pretty good! The peacemaker edge holding is as good or better than Spyderco's S30V.

I don't have any experience with Nathan but lets talk theory,

Nathan's 3V was heat treat with modified recipe (Roman Landes) that require rapid quench rate and cryo right after quench to convert RA to martensite then do the low >400F tempering. The goal of this recipe is to maximize edge strength and toughness (also a bit improve on corrosion resistance as bonus).
Dan Keffeler also prefer this recipe over the original one on his blade. AFAIK He is the very first maker who invite Peters Heat treat to use the recipe as standard for 3V.

Fehrman probably have his own recipe but I ever had a conversation to a guy at Fehrman shop he said they have their secret multi-stage stress relieve which I have no idea but they don't do cryogenic. So I guess Fehrman have to use high 1000F tempering since it was the only way left to solve RA.
This tempering range will has some disadvantage due to lower martensite strength and precipitation of secondary carbides thus lower edge stability and toughness.

So in metallurgical theory Nathan's 3V should be better.
 
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See, this is the kind of information I like to read, the in depth part about the heat treat, thanks for your response. It's very interesting. It's also way out of my league. But im learning.
 
One thing to keep in mind is Eric Fehrman was using 3V before it was popular. He has been using it for knives longer than just about any body just something to keep in mind.
 
PatrickKnight said:
One thing to keep in mind is Eric Fehrman was using 3V before it was popular. He has been using it for knives longer than just about any body just something to keep in mind.
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Just because somebody has been doing something longer than other people doesn't mean they've been doing it better. Not saying anything specific about either maker. They both have good reputations.
 
I would bet that Ferhman has been tweaking his HT for some time. When Fehrman started, his HT was already much more involved than spec ht. Also, one test a conclussion does not make.
 
Cobalt just got a small specimen, and I think he's probably a pretty experienced user/abuser of knives with a good selection of comparison pieces? Perhaps he could shed some light on this question?
 
I can as soon as I get back home this coming week. I will definitely see how Nathans new ht does against some other known steels. Sgould be interesting to me anyway.
 
One other thing, I was pretty sure that Fehrman did use cryo but maybe I read incorrect information. Another issue is that in some cases cryo has been shown to increase wear resistance at the expense of toughness. I am not sure if that is the case with 3v or not.
 
And to me, I'm really impressed with Nathan's results. I had always been impressed with fehrmans in comparison to some other 3v. Keep us posted cobalt
 
Hopefully some day I can score one of Nathan's field knives, and put it to use skinning an elk.
 
Cobalt said:
I can as soon as I get back home this coming week. I will definitely see how Nathans new ht does against some other known steels. Sgould be interesting to me anyway.
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REALLY looking forward to this..
I've watched that video of yours Nathan (3v abuse test) many times,, very impressive.

Cobalt,, did you ever get that 911 back from that guy?
 
I am interested ad well. Who doesn't like it when knife makers push the limits in an attempt to get the most out of any steel they use.
 
Let's get back to reality for a moment ! One of the basic strenghthening mechanisms of metals is the introduction of particles. [carbides and other compounds. ] If you have them in your steel it WILL be stronger .This is not about feelings ,assumptions , it's about scientific fact. We can see the carbides even if they are small .We know exactly how particles strengthen steels .
So the question is - is it worth buying a better steel ,is the HT worth the money , how much better are the properties ?
I like it and I can tell the difference in performance and it's worth the extra money to me. And I'm a metallurgist !
 
True, but it is more about scientific fact proven through testing. Without testing scientific fact is useless. You cannot prove your theorem. Also, when the science of steel ht is still developing, there nothing set in stone. If there was then these improved heat treats would be unnecessary. There is still lots of ignorance in steel making and ht.
 
Cobalt said:
One other thing, I was pretty sure that Fehrman did use cryo but maybe I read incorrect information. Another issue is that in some cases cryo has been shown to increase wear resistance at the expense of toughness. I am not sure if that is the case with 3v or not.
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Andy Howald who is the sales manager of Fehrman Knives confirmed me in late of 2012 that they don't employ cryogenic treat because the Crucible original recipe don't suggest it.
 
Cobalt said:
True, but it is more about scientific fact proven through testing. Without testing scientific fact is useless. You cannot prove your theorem. Also, when the science of steel ht is still developing, there nothing set in stone. If there was then these improved heat treats would be unnecessary. There is still lots of ignorance in steel making and ht.
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I think this is very true. The most current metallurgy text I have is Tool Steels, 5th edition, and there is a ton of important information in it that wasn't in the 4th edition. That shows things are still developing even in old well established materials.

I believe there are some quirks with particle steels that has received no discussion anywhere at all.

There are some obvious limits to what any of us here are going to "discover" in the field of metallurgy. But some educated guesses and some blundering around with careful controls and observations really can yield demonstrable results even in cases where there isn't a good theory why some things happen. This is the value of real testing.

I will say this: Crucible doesn't appear to be optimizing their materials HT for cutlery. It may not be important to them, or perhaps they're just ill equipped to make meaningful observations as it applies to knives, but I think their suggestions leave some low hanging fruit.
 
Devin Thomas said that the LONG cryo precipitates those little carbides that do just what you said with AEB-L, which , of course, does not have the larger primary carbides that other higher alloy steels do. I am as far from being an expert on these things as one can get, but it seems the the Landes/Nate method may reduce the drop in toughness that you see going from 58-60Rc with 3v using the "normal" method. According to Crucibles data, when you do that using the high temper, you apparently end up with a product that is only about 25% tougher than A2 at 60 instead of one that is twice as tough at 58Rc as A2 is at 60Rc. Part of that may be the cryo which we know adds a point or so of hardness on its own to these alloyed steels. Having the steel 2 points higher is obviously going to help significantly with abrasion resistance. The question becomes how much MORE does the low temp/cryo method do? Do we get even more fine edge stability that 3V normally gives us? Herr Doktor Landes says that is appears to have benefit with most higher alloy steels. IIRC, he did his dissertation work using RWL34. The other thing that he suggests is quenching in water when you bring the blade out of the temper oven to avoid some minor embrittlement issues. More toughness to be squeezed out of the steel even in the later phases of HT.
Cobalt said:
One other thing, I was pretty sure that Fehrman did use cryo but maybe I read incorrect information. Another issue is that in some cases cryo has been shown to increase wear resistance at the expense of toughness. I am not sure if that is the case with 3v or not.
Click to expand...
 
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