Few folder questions.

[Kevin Powers]

I've made a handful of folders and am currently playing with framelock flippers. Well I want them to flip but they just don't want to. I am working on better machining and setting detents. I have read that you want a strong detent to get them to flip.
I am using bearings from alpha and 1/16" stainless detents. This current one has smooth action but the detent is "rough" as it drags across the tang. I know the detent is slowing the blade down. I also know that the detent isn't strong enough. It will flip with wrist action, and also if I put pressure on the lock at with a little silicone spray on the blade to slick up the detent track.
I tried to use lapping grease on the detent ball and work the action back and forth. It didn't help much. What kind of tricks do you folder guys use to smooth out the action and "break in" the bearings or all the other pivot assemblies?
Do you mill a gradual detent ramp in the blade with a rotary table?
I have a mill and rotary table but I really suck at using them both. I do not have a surface grinder yet, all surfaces are done using a disc.
It's only a prototype that I've been carrying for a couple days now, and I know where my mistakes are, just searching for some hints to help break in the future ones I make.
Oh and one last thing, do you stake or peen the stop pin in or do you just let it float?
First ever frame lock

That one has flaws that effect the function so it stays with me for torture testing.
This one below I started messing with today, I waterjetted a few different blade profiles to expirament. I am waterjetting the frames and blades and then fitting the frames and blades to one another in matched sets. Each one is a little different.

 

[Kevin McGovern]

If you send it to me, I'd be more than happy to beat the tar out of it for you😂

Sent from my XT1095 using Tapatalk

 

[Daniel Fairly Knives]

Looking good!

- rough detent - try cleaning up your flats just a bit and see what that does... also try some inexpensive lithium grease on the detent path . This also has to do with the following...

How for over is your lock bar bent and now thick is your lock relief?

What size bits on the detent? Straight hole in the blade?

How far does your detent ball stick out?

Remove your stop pin and see if the detent improves. If so, try removing some metal on the choil/etc so the blade closes a bit further. If not try top add more of an offset next time when drilling the detent.

No need for a rotary table, you can just add a quick chamfer where the detent ball drops off of the blade with a belt and small wheel. I generally chamfer the whole area where the ball falls off and above because it looks nice and clean. Clean it up with a scotchbrite belt if you like.

I hope this helps you some. Your knives are looking good!

 

[Kevin Powers]

Looking good!

- rough detent - try cleaning up your flats just a bit and see what that does... also try some inexpensive lithium grease on the detent path . This also has to do with the following...

How for over is your lock bar bent and now thick is your lock relief?

What size bits on the detent? Straight hole in the blade?

How far does your detent ball stick out?

Remove your stop pin and see if the detent improves. If so, try removing some metal on the choil/etc so the blade closes a bit further. If not try top add more of an offset next time when drilling the detent.

No need for a rotary table, you can just add a quick chamfer where the detent ball drops off of the blade with a belt and small wheel. I generally chamfer the whole area where the ball falls off and above because it looks nice and clean. Clean it up with a scotchbrite belt if you like.

I hope this helps you some. Your knives are looking good!

Thanks for the pointers. I'll be setting the action on the one in the bottom pic this morning.
I drill the detent hole with a #53 and set the ball using a .020" washer surrounding it.
I assemble the knife without the stop pin, close the blade a little passed the stop point and drill into the blade.
The I'm using .125" Ti for the frame and I mill the lock relief to about .050".
The flats were taken to a clean 600, then buffed.
I'll check your insta to see if you have any pics of the detent ramp,
Thanks Daniel

 

[Lo/Rez]

What size washers are you using on the blade when it is assembled? The detent ball should be set the same from what I've read. IE, .010" washers, set the ball .010" proud. Nice knife design BTW.

 

[Kevin Powers]

What size washers are you using on the blade when it is assembled? The detent ball should be set the same from what I've read. IE, .010" washers, set the ball .010" proud. Nice knife design BTW.

I'm using bearings from alpha. I got this one done and the detent is much better. The issue with this one is the blade isn't centered and it looks as if the lockbar is pushing it over. I've assembled and reassembled it no less than 50 times today and can't figure it out. If I tighten the pivot enough to overcome the spring tension then it is hard to open and close, even on bearings. It flips, just not when the pivot is all tight. Gonna look at getting a lap for the pivot as well.

 

[Daniel Fairly Knives]

Everything you are doing sounds pretty solid... I'd start remeasuring, looking for any nearly invisible burrs, rechecking for parallel,

On the detent path I meant I cut a chamfer where it drops off of the bar. As far as making a path goes I just use a ceramic detent ball and lithium grease with a light pressure on the lock bar {knife fully assembled} Work it lightly until action improves... if it gets gritty clean it immediately then add more grease. For some reason this problem has gone away for me so I usually don't do anything to break in the path.

I'm using a disc and lapping flat on a surface plate... recheck that blade for flatness especially where the bearings sit. I was working on a group of framelocks this weekend and had one blade that was giving me issues until I relapped it.

On the bumpy/gritty detent path also try using some windex to just spray the crud out with the knife assembled... spray in some lithium grease and see what that does.

I recently switched to all carbide tooling and SK counterbores, a lot of my hard to diagnose problems went away. AKS screws also took things a few steps further, I noticed that with some other pretty high end screws the knives did not assemble the same every time.

You are definitely making folders! Keep on it as they look great!

 

[Kevin Powers]

Everything you are doing sounds pretty solid... I'd start remeasuring, looking for any nearly invisible burrs, rechecking for parallel,

On the detent path I meant I cut a chamfer where it drops off of the bar. As far as making a path goes I just use a ceramic detent ball and lithium grease with a light pressure on the lock bar {knife fully assembled} Work it lightly until action improves... if it gets gritty clean it immediately then add more grease. For some reason this problem has gone away for me so I usually don't do anything to break in the path.

I'm using a disc and lapping flat on a surface plate... recheck that blade for flatness especially where the bearings sit. I was working on a group of framelocks this weekend and had one blade that was giving me issues until I relapped it.

On the bumpy/gritty detent path also try using some windex to just spray the crud out with the knife assembled... spray in some lithium grease and see what that does.

I recently switched to all carbide tooling and SK counterbores, a lot of my hard to diagnose problems went away. AKS screws also took things a few steps further, I noticed that with some other pretty high end screws the knives did not assemble the same every time.

You are definitely making folders! Keep on it as they look great!

Funny, last night I ordered carbide reamer for the pivot hole, and a piloted counterbore for the recess of the pivot screw. I could not find a counterbore for the bearing pocket. I'm going to dig for one at my local tooling guys place. I saw a video of someone testing smoothness of a ceramic ball vs. SS ball by closing the blade with a rubberband. Have you noticed it to be much smoother? Thanks for the kudos but I'm still not happy. I'm trying some new things with these that's improving my process but I want them smooth and tight. I guess they will only get that way with use?? Is there a ready made tool for a bearing lap. I've seen people cold roll bearings on their mill, I would like to do that.

 

[Daniel Fairly Knives]

Funny, last night I ordered carbide reamer for the pivot hole, and a piloted counterbore for the recess of the pivot screw. I could not find a counterbore for the bearing pocket. I'm going to dig for one at my local tooling guys place. I saw a video of someone testing smoothness of a ceramic ball vs. SS ball by closing the blade with a rubberband. Have you noticed it to be much smoother? Thanks for the kudos but I'm still not happy. I'm trying some new things with these that's improving my process but I want them smooth and tight. I guess they will only get that way with use?? Is there a ready made tool for a bearing lap. I've seen people cold roll bearings on their mill, I would like to do that.

Check ticonnector for counterbores... they are really good and work better than the cheaper ones. I hear Mcmaster has some good ones too, look for the narrow shank ones with carbide tips.

I think ceramic detents make a smoother knife... but with bearings I have tried both and haven't really noticed a difference.

If everything is right the knife should be crazy smooth the first time it is assembled and with no lube. I don't lap or roll my bearings in either


Go over the bearing depth and backspacer thickness... also depending on how you do your stop pin make sure it is sized right. I bet something is off by a tiny bit somewhere.

 

[Kevin Powers]

So should the bearings create a track in the titanium or is that tightening the pivot too much?

 

[Lo/Rez]

 

[Kevin Powers]

Damn that's a way deeper track than I'm getting. Thanks Rez

 

[Kevin Powers]

I turned down a piece of drill rod yesterday to fit over the bearings and that fits in the pivot hole to set the bearings. Put everything in my mill and cold rolled a track in my liners. Now the prototype is running smooth. I do need to change the location of the detent ball. There's quite a bit of distance between full lock up to where the ball begins to contact the tang. Moving the detent will have a snowball effect on the rest of the design as well. I'll have to change the front of the frame to keep the track hidden, and I'd like more coverage of the stop pin track as well. From straight on side view you can't see it but when you angle the knife it's visible. I also decided to try some different finishing techniques on the frame yesterday. I had a red scotchbrite pad that I put on my buffer and then anodized in baking soda and distilled water with my etcher. It turns purple with fingerprints and back to bronze with windex. Pretty weird. So now onto pictures, these are embarrassing but that's why it's a prototype without my name on it. The counterbores are awful but I got that figured out.
This is the profile, stop pin track isn't really visible.

With a glance from an angle, there it is.

This is how much the blade moves until contact with the detent ball. I'm not really sure how to get this remedied.

 

[efleming]

Try using thrust washers rather than running your bearings against the Ti. You will like the result.

Eric Fleming
www.flemingknives.com

 

[Pittknife]

Thanks for the pointers. I'll be setting the action on the one in the bottom pic this morning.
I drill the detent hole with a #53 and set the ball using a .020" washer surrounding it.
I assemble the knife without the stop pin, close the blade a little passed the stop point and drill into the blade.
The I'm using .125" Ti for the frame and I mill the lock relief to about .050".
The flats were taken to a clean 600, then buffed.
I'll check your insta to see if you have any pics of the detent ramp,
Thanks Daniel

You are setting your ball too deep, you probably have a little bit of blade play before flipping. Set your ball to around .030" and you'll get more engage and "stronger detent". If you really want a snappier detent you can flat face the detent ball. You'll get a lot of speed but lose out on smoothness.

Action is an art and there could be a lot of things, your lockbar geometry along with lock bar relief will determine a lot of things.

600 grit is pretty average and you shouldn't have a rough feel, are you using races on the Ti framelock? without races you will get galling.

I can't post videos but take a look at my IG pages on my actions and I can explain how to get there if you email me. mike12_nguyen on ig.