FFKW Gent Patina & Response

Victorian Squid said:
I just saw this, and it's a good start.
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As far as I know this isn't an established pattern of behavior for them. I haven't seen anything else about FF having poor customer service. I think the public post is a fine response and don't think any more is really necessary.

I would've liked to see them facilitate an investigation into the issue with WE and Massdrop. They are JUST the designer, but a named designer would probably have more weight to throw around than a customer. Ultimately though, they didn't cause the issue and I wouldn't hold them responsible.
 
We all have bad moments; I think the apology handles the initial bad look.

Now this question has been raised to Massdrop who are ultimately responsible for CS on their collabs. We'll see how it pans out from here.
 
Good on him to apologize, hopefully originator gets a new knife with S35v.

I had the first one, the Crux? Felt like a little, cheap knife, which I guess is what it is. Sold it and won’t be buying another We related massdrop knife.
 
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Hackenslash said:
We all have bad moments; I think the apology handles the initial bad look.

Now this question has been raised to Massdrop who are ultimately responsible for CS on their collabs. We'll see how it pans out from here.
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He didn't actually apologize..
 
VernonRemington said:
Good on him to apologize, hopefully originator gets a new knife with S35v.

I had the first one, the Crux? Felt like a little, cheap knife, which I guess is what it is. Sold it and won’t be buying another We related massdrop knife.
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Agreed. My falcon was bad in so many ways. I gave it away and down the drain went $125

I could have had an actual good knife for that money like another pm2.
 
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vmmvmmm said:
What would constitute an apology in your mind?
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"I would like to apoligize to Jarvis for the way I acted, and I hope he can forgive me for treating him like a POS"...something like that. Saying you regret doing something is not an apology. Of course, this is just my opinion.
 
T.L.E. Sharp said:
As far as I know this isn't an established pattern of behavior for them. I haven't seen anything else about FF having poor customer service. I think the public post is a fine response and don't think any more is really necessary.

I would've liked to see them facilitate an investigation into the issue with WE and Massdrop. They are JUST the designer, but a named designer would probably have more weight to throw around than a customer. Ultimately though, they didn't cause the issue and I wouldn't hold them responsible.
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Actually, I had what I would consider poor customer service. Frankly, it stank. See my link to my (one-sided) correspondence with them earlier in this thread. I'm only pointing out my personal dealings with them, but it's enough that I would think long and hard before buying another FF knife. Especially considering the service I've been given from many other custom manufacturers. Do they kniw their sh*t? You betcha. Do they build a good knife? Check. Have they taken even a rudimentary business management course? Err...

TBH they are "just" the designer, but they advertise the knives as their own, and the logo is more than prominent. It's great that a couple of brothers started a knife business and became successful. I've been a fan for years. However, I've been in the service industry since before they were a zygote. You simply don't treat people that way without consequences, morons or not. I'm sure there will be some who rally to their cause, as well as those who will no longer have anything to do with them.

I for one am really glad Elliot issued what seemed to be an honest apology and assessment of his behavior. I hope it's the start of some serious soul searching. Let's hope they decide to get serious about running a business and begin to act like professionals instead of the fun guys working at the transmission shop next door. The response he gave would have been a bit much even if the guy was an obvious idiot and making unreasonable demands. All I saw was somebody pointing out an issue, and one that's a head-scratcher to a lot of us. As you mention, their name is on this, they promote it, I would think that basic curiosity of nothing else would prompt a further investigation.

Personally, after my simple dealings with them with one of the only serious knife problems I've ever had - I'm not really going to buy any of their products any time soon. Communication is key to sales and service. All they ever had to do with me was say "we got it" and "this is what's wrong". I don't need to hear from a third party what the problem is, and that of course everybody knew this was an issue. Yeah, no. And saying it's somebody's fault because they shouldn't be answering emails? WTF? Nobody should have to go months without hearing about a $500 knife.

It's certainly an odd coincidence that the only 2 knives out of possible 100 I've owned that had catastrophic Ti failure, both had FF logos on them. However, it does make me think that they've been dealing with WE for a lot longer than the Massdrop collaboration.
 
Wouldn't the first step be contact massdrop on the issue? This whole ordeal could have been avoided
 
Yes, but it also could have been avoided if that was the simple instructions they gave instead of acting so rudely, which they have acknowledged.
 
I think this issue is resolved...mostly. Others have been able to force a patina on their Gent, but they can be scrubbed off with mild effort...therefore, not really a patina.

MD has validated receipt of S35VN thru WE and is verifying with Niton gun testing at a third party. It doesn't appear to be HT problem as sharpening and edge retention are appropriate by several sources. I have a bunch of S35VN blades from multiple makers and the Gent seems spot on to me.

Some folks have ventured that they think this is an anomaly related to the stonewash finish. Since the forced patinas are easy to remove, I'm not sure what to think. I was able to force a slight shadow on my Gent but haven't had a chance to do anything else with it.

All in all, I'm fairly impressed with the response. Other than stumbling out of the gate with some attitude from FFKW, all parties involved have treated this issue with haste and importance. I'm tempted to say this may be the most comprehensive response to a production issue on a knife I've ever seen.

MD has reached out to the OP and barring some strange test results down the road, I think it's a done deal.

Thanks to everyone who helped work through this problem. Despite the inherent poison of social media, calmer heads prevailed.
 
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Hey everyone -- I just wanted to let you know that we've been following along about this, and provide some updates. The conversation has been spread across DMs, Reddit, Instagram, BladeForums, and of course the Massdrop discussion page for Gent (and Buc as well).

1) Yeah, Elliot was kind of jerk. He knows it, and he apologized for it. I can tell you from emails, texts, and calls about it that he's genuinely taken this to heart, and has been thinking a lot about how his interactions affect other people and his own business. IMO, mistakes happen and what matters most is how people handle them. Here's the post that he made on Instagram, which has received a pretty nice response from the community. We like working with him, and if you ever drop by the FFKW shop during their Friday hangouts I think you would see that he's a giant teddy bear of a human being who is overwhelmingly grateful to the people who buy his knives and make it possible for him to live the dream. I'm not defending his choice of words in that exchange, just sayin...sometimes we all say things we wish we hadn't and my interactions with him over the past 18 months have been 99.9% positive. Dude has taught me a LOT, even about projects that he doesn't make a dime from.

2) It is the case that coming directly to Massdrop for support is the best way to let us know of any potential issues. Of course, people are certainly entitled to post what they want, where they want, and it's actually pretty cool that enough people now own Massdrop-produced knives that there would be discussions about this in so many places. However, if anyone is looking to report a problem - or even a potential problem - we do appreciate knowing about it directly so that we can contact our vendor, look to see if other members have reported similar concerns, and track down any potential issues as quickly as possible so that we can understand if there is a problem, and how many people it might affect, and what we can do about it ASAP.

3) We've done testing of WE Knives and also confirmed via receipts they shared of purchases from Niagara Metals that the steel used in the Gent is indeed Crucible S35VN. The heat treatment and bevel grinding on these was done the same way as Falcon and Crux and others; I'm not sure why we only saw this reported on Gent, but it's entirely possible that's just because people aren't cutting steaks with Falcons. @Namhod did his own test, and found that while his knife did get stained, it also cleaned up very easily.

4) Folks here probably know better than most that "stainless" doesn't mean "stainfree" - but we also recognize that people have really high expectations of these super steels. Additionally, we never operate on assumptions, so we're watching to see if other people report staining that seems out of line with what is reasonable to expect from S35VN performance. We are looking into whether more scientific testing is necessary to provide the community assurances about the Gent and all knives purchased from Massdrop.

I've posted below links to the various places people have been talking about this to give everyone the full context. Thanks for reading and please let me know if there's anything else you'd like to know. Generally speaking, I do most of my posting on our own site, but I do try to keep up with other channels like this as best I can. If you see something that needs my attention (I direct all the blades and EDC collaborations for Massdrop) you're welcome to send an email to [jonas @ massdrop . com] and I will check it out ASAP.

Thanks! - Jonas

Massdrop Gent discussion post - https://www.massdrop.com/buy/massdrop-x-ferrum-forge-gent-s35vn-pocket-knife/talk/2014324
FFKW Instagram 'open letter' - https://www.instagram.com/p/Bgzhpdvgw9t/
Original Reddit post - https://www.reddit.com/r/knifeclub/...piece_of_steak_the_ffkw_falcon_didnt_do_this/
BladeForums post re: patina on CPM steels - https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/is-this-normal-for-cpm-154.1091852 /
 
SanFranCitizen said:
1) Yeah, Elliot was kind of jerk. He knows it, and he apologized for it. I can tell you from emails, texts, and calls about it that he's genuinely taken this to heart, and has been thinking a lot about how his interactions affect other people and his own business. IMO, mistakes happen and what matters most is how people handle them. Here's the post that he made on Instagram, which has received a pretty nice response from the community. We like working with him, and if you ever drop by the FFKW shop during their Friday hangouts I think you would see that he's a giant teddy bear of a human being who is overwhelmingly grateful to the people who buy his knives and make it possible for him to live the dream. I'm not defending his choice of words in that exchange, just sayin...sometimes we all say things we wish we hadn't and my interactions with him over the past 18 months have been 99.9% positive. Dude has taught me a LOT, even about projects that he doesn't make a dime from.
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For what it's worth, as someone who has bought FFKW Massdrop products (and who also buys expensive customs and high end productions) from life experience I give the DM where he was a douche a thousand times more weight than the apology. People who get called out and who apologize like this are doing it to protect their business. They might also be doing it because they really feel bad, but let's not kid ourselves about why Elliot made that post--it was to reduce damage to his brand.

Someone who is not nice to a waiter is not a nice person, and neither is a knife maker who craps on a customer in a DM. I won't buy anything with the FF name on it again, I've seen the enough of the real Elliot to take my dollars elsewhere.
 
Thanks for this thread, and thanks to Elliot at Ferrum Forge and to Massdrop for responding. That is both good customer service and good manners.

The Gent is one of my favorite folders. I haven't cut any food but thought I noticed the start of some patina from handling the blade. I have now treated it with an anti-corrosion spray: Aegis Solutions EDCI that I purchased at GP Knives.

One other thing I'd like to mention about the FF/WE/MD knives. The pivots on some of mine (the Falcons in particular) have repeatedly come loose from not being Loctited. That is not something you want happening in the field.

I've mentioned this to MD but received no substantive response.

MD says it has taken additional steps at QC after receiving knives from WE. Please add this to your list of things to watch for. Fyi -- it sometimes takes a while for the pivots to come loose so one or two flips probably won't be enough.

Thank you. And thank you for making some terrific folders and offering them at terrific prices.
 
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SanFranCitizen SanFranCitizen Thanks for stopping by, Jonas!

I may retry some of the stuff I did with my Crux to see what happens with regards to staining/patina. I don’t have the carbon steel experience that some members do, so if something seems wonky, I may ask for an opinion here in the forum.

I’ve been direct with my criticisms and praise for the Falcon & Crux; nevertheless, I carry the Crux fairly regularly in spite of having many pricier knives in my stable. (I also have a Gent on order.)

With regards to Elliot’s comments, IMO they were probably a bit overly direct and self-aggrandizing. They didn’t strike me with the same level of offense as they did others; perhaps that’s just me. Regardless, I was once an indestructible, all knowing and overly direct youngster. Life experience has *hopefully* made me a bit more wise. This sounds like it might be a similar growth experience for the FFKW gang, so I’m willing to extend the benefit of doubt—Lord knows plenty of folks have shown me the same courtesy over the years.

Jonas, your open engagement is also a nice touch.
 
SanFranCitizen SanFranCitizen kudos to you for your response....well spoken and thought out. Not much to add, I have had many experiences with FFKW, and the DM's received by the OP were rather shocking...but hey, I've had an ego trip or two myself:-)
 
SanFranCitizen said:
Hey everyone -- I just wanted to let you know that we've been following along about this, and provide some updates. The conversation has been spread across DMs, Reddit, Instagram, BladeForums, and of course the Massdrop discussion page for Gent (and Buc as well).

1) Yeah, Elliot was kind of jerk. He knows it, and he apologized for it. I can tell you from emails, texts, and calls about it that he's genuinely taken this to heart, and has been thinking a lot about how his interactions affect other people and his own business. IMO, mistakes happen and what matters most is how people handle them. Here's the post that he made on Instagram, which has received a pretty nice response from the community. We like working with him, and if you ever drop by the FFKW shop during their Friday hangouts I think you would see that he's a giant teddy bear of a human being who is overwhelmingly grateful to the people who buy his knives and make it possible for him to live the dream. I'm not defending his choice of words in that exchange, just sayin...sometimes we all say things we wish we hadn't and my interactions with him over the past 18 months have been 99.9% positive. Dude has taught me a LOT, even about projects that he doesn't make a dime from.

2) It is the case that coming directly to Massdrop for support is the best way to let us know of any potential issues. Of course, people are certainly entitled to post what they want, where they want, and it's actually pretty cool that enough people now own Massdrop-produced knives that there would be discussions about this in so many places. However, if anyone is looking to report a problem - or even a potential problem - we do appreciate knowing about it directly so that we can contact our vendor, look to see if other members have reported similar concerns, and track down any potential issues as quickly as possible so that we can understand if there is a problem, and how many people it might affect, and what we can do about it ASAP.

3) We've done testing of WE Knives and also confirmed via receipts they shared of purchases from Niagara Metals that the steel used in the Gent is indeed Crucible S35VN. The heat treatment and bevel grinding on these was done the same way as Falcon and Crux and others; I'm not sure why we only saw this reported on Gent, but it's entirely possible that's just because people aren't cutting steaks with Falcons. @Namhod did his own test, and found that while his knife did get stained, it also cleaned up very easily.

4) Folks here probably know better than most that "stainless" doesn't mean "stainfree" - but we also recognize that people have really high expectations of these super steels. Additionally, we never operate on assumptions, so we're watching to see if other people report staining that seems out of line with what is reasonable to expect from S35VN performance. We are looking into whether more scientific testing is necessary to provide the community assurances about the Gent and all knives purchased from Massdrop.

I've posted below links to the various places people have been talking about this to give everyone the full context. Thanks for reading and please let me know if there's anything else you'd like to know. Generally speaking, I do most of my posting on our own site, but I do try to keep up with other channels like this as best I can. If you see something that needs my attention (I direct all the blades and EDC collaborations for Massdrop) you're welcome to send an email to [jonas @ massdrop . com] and I will check it out ASAP.

Thanks! - Jonas

Massdrop Gent discussion post - https://www.massdrop.com/buy/massdrop-x-ferrum-forge-gent-s35vn-pocket-knife/talk/2014324
FFKW Instagram 'open letter' - https://www.instagram.com/p/Bgzhpdvgw9t/
Original Reddit post - https://www.reddit.com/r/knifeclub/...piece_of_steak_the_ffkw_falcon_didnt_do_this/
BladeForums post re: patina on CPM steels - https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/is-this-normal-for-cpm-154.1091852 /
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This isn't scientific evidence of any malicious dealings of course, but I actually did cut a steak with a Falcon and experienced no staining at all.

Again, I know enough to know that it's not in any way proof of anything, but since it paralleled your post so perfectly I thought I'd point it out.
 
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