Fiction? Hype? 3% carbon?

M

MSCantrell

Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
Joined
Mar 12, 2005
Messages
1,213
A friend just sent this link:
http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/KDSeries.html

It's a page about a higher-end chef's set. They look nice. But here's what jumped out at me:

Without any compromises, Traditional Craftsman, Mr. Hattori has devoted all his energies, times, experiences and techniques to create these beautiful Chef's knives, using ancient forging technique of the swordmaking. Each blade is hand forged fromCowry X core steel with Nickel Stainless Damascus steel. Cowry X is the tough powdered metal alloy specially developed by Daido Steel Company for high performance cutting tools. It contains high carbon (3%) and high Chromium (20%) with 1% Molybdenum and 0.3% Vanadium, and can be heat treated to HRC63 to 67 without brittleness.

It contains high carbon (3%) WHAT?

"can be heat treated to HRC63 to 67 without brittleness" also sounds far-fetched, but "brittleness" is relative.

So how are they packing in roughly triple the carbon content of 1095, 440C, 52100, ATS-34, etc?

And why haven't we all heard of this Cowry X miracle?

Anybody with info?
 
Hmmm...that is strange, that would make it a stainless cast iron, although with all that carbon it seems like most of that chromium would be tied up in carbides. I'm interested in what Mete or Kevin have to say about it.
 
I don't think this is new. A Japanese knifemaker, Koji Hara, has been using this steel for while. This is similar to to the ZDP steel used in the newer Spyderco and Kershaw blades. They are phenomenal ! :thumbup:Almost forgot, the William henry ZDP folders are also 67RC with the zdp blades.
 
yep not realy new but if i remember right all the wild super high carbon + alloy steels aer PM
PM steels have been changing some steel to the extreme
and jsut so you know cpm10v has 2.45 C but it also has 10 v to suck up alot of that carbon
hardness ranging from 61-64 not a big deal but grinding it sucks
also while i have not chiped it yet (not hard testing YET) i make more kitchen knives then hunter and combat so little side loading

just another steel to pick from when makeing knives fro some that wil respect the steel being used
 
Sounds just like ZDP-189

3% carbon, 20% chromium, 1% Molybdenum, low vanadium.



I've used the stuff (ZDP-189) and it indeed is very hard. Plus Spyderco has CATRA tests to back up the claims.
 
I had one of these Hattori santokus. It was fairly easy to sharpen, but would chip easily and rust if you looked at it funny.

I also have santokus in 420J, 1084, and CPM-154, and my preference is hands down for the 1084. Subjectively, the edge performance and ease of sharpening of 1084 beats any value to the stainlessness of the other two.

In theory, I should have liked the Cowry-X knife, but the chipping really annoyed me. I'd be interested in trying Cowry-X again in a lightweight folder, but not for anything close to kitchen work.

Instead I'm having a 3V santoku made.
 
There are a couple of super high carbon content particle metal steels. CowryX and ZDP-289 are two. They make wonderful knives for specific purposes, but are not good general use knives IMHO. A large part of all that ...."....using ancient techniques learned from Japanese master...." stuff is sales hype.

Reality - it is a high tech ,high carbon/high alloy particle metal steel that can be hardened to a high degree. It is not the be all and end all of knife steel though.
It was developed by the most stringent and high end metallurgy labs.It is produced in high end foundries (Hitachi). The knives are made in modern factories with high tech equipment not available to the general knife maker.

On the technical side, you can add enough extra alloy elements (chromium, vanadium, molybdenum, etc.) to combine with all the excess carbon and make lots of hard carbides. There is a practical limit and higher is not necessarily better. It greatly complicates the HT. There is more to chipping than brittleness. When there are too many (and too large) carbides, they tend to pop out of the blade edge.
As Rob pointed out ,other high carbon steels make better knifes in many cases.

On a slightly related topic to the article about Mr. Hattori and making the knives:
My grandfather was hired by a large brewery as a brewmeister in the 1950's.
Sure he had brewed a lot of beer in his cellar during the Prohibition, and yes he had made beer in Germany before comming to the USA.... but he really didn't know anything about brewing beer in a factory. He had applied for a job because they were hiring workers. He expected to be a general worker. They had him drawing samples and taking them to the lab,tasting beer (his favorite part of the job), and keeping some records ...that was all.When he left after a couple of years (he moved) he asked why they made him a brewmeister. He was told," So we could say ..."Our beer is made by an old German brewmeister, Max Reinhardt Apelt.He uses brewing skills passed down to him by his father and grandfather in Germany." It was the name and his past that gave him street cred.
Stacy
 
Gabe Newell said:
I had one of these Hattori santokus. It was fairly easy to sharpen, but would chip easily and rust if you looked at it funny.

I also have santokus in 420J, 1084, and CPM-154, and my preference is hands down for the 1084. Subjectively, the edge performance and ease of sharpening of 1084 beats any value to the stainlessness of the other two.

In theory, I should have liked the Cowry-X knife, but the chipping really annoyed me. I'd be interested in trying Cowry-X again in a lightweight folder, but not for anything close to kitchen work.

Instead I'm having a 3V santoku made.
Click to expand...

I have to agree with Gabe here. I've tried them and I just don't like the high alloy stuff. For me, the lower the alloy (with .80 to 1% carbon) the better.
 
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