Fighting Bowies

[Ebbtide]

ArchAngel, did your Livesay Sandbar Bowie come polished or did you do it?
Here's #13

 

[crossada]

i have a Rob Patton mandritta on order. if you really are thinking of getting both the ontario bell and cs natchez you could have one of these.

http://www.pattonknives.com/1mainframe.htm

there is an older version of it under the knife gallery. Rob sent me a pic of the updated version but i'm too computer illiterate to transfer it to this thread

 

[ArchAngel]

ArchAngel, did your Livesay Sandbar Bowie come polished or did you do it?
Here's #13

Ebbtide,
I am the second owner, but I think that it came with that satin finish. The only thing I did to make it nicer was to polish out the outside of the guard that still had the waterjet/or whatever was used to cut the guard out marks. Other than that I have left it stock. Is yours one of the D-2 ones also. I remember that Newt made most of them in 5160 and those were parkerized, but did a run of 25 I think that were D-2. I will have to dig it out of the safe and check the S/N on mine. I like it too. It is light and fast. Dug it out. Mine is #15 of the D-2 ones.

 

[Mike Sastre]

The first batch (numbered) of the Livesay's were all satin finished - forget what steel - had #2. The over-exaggerated clip just didn't fit my idea of practicality in a Bowie. Don't ask me about the sheath.

 

[ArchAngel]

The first batch (numbered) of the Livesay's were all satin finished - forget what steel - had #2. The over-exaggerated clip just didn't fit my idea of practicality in a Bowie. Don't ask me about the sheath.

Mike,
You must be driven crazy by that ugly square blob of a sheath.

 

[RogerP]

Is the CS Natchez - really $600? What would be the attraction in paying a custom price for a production piece? Seriously, I'm not knocking anyone's choice - people like what they like and their preferences are no less valid than my own. But I have purchased many an excellent custom bowie over the years for that price and less and that's pretty much how I would do so now were I bowie-shopping at that price point.

Roger

 

[chasden]

You can find it for about half that price if you look around, Roger. And yes it really is worth the money. See the review thread on the Natchez for comments.

 

[RogerP]

At half the price, the comparison to a custom bowie all but disappears. That's why I prefaced my comments with the question as to its price. And just to be clear, I didn't question it's inherent value (I've never even picked one up and wouldn't presume to offer an opinion - though on a blade that large, I'd want a full tang - hidden or exposed) but rather its comparative value to a custom piece of the same price.

Roger

 

[Ebbtide]

It's been so long I forgot what steel is in my Livesay bowie.
I thought it was 1095 like the rest of his stuff.
Then again I thought the whole batch of #'rd SBBs were parkarized, and that was the first batch as well.
:shrug:

Before the OP plunks down for the CS, check the purveyors...there are some customs that aren't much more coin...
Knifecenter has the Natchez for 399
Les Robertson's site has a couple of beauties by Ruth and Graham for 50 & 75 dollars more.

Just a thought
While we're at it...
My new baby...

 

[Tonie Nichols]

My teacher is a certified Keating Bowie instructor and we've been at it for some time now. He has a Laredo Bowie and we are both interested in getting our hands on the Natchez. I have a custom bowie (8" blade) that I have carried concealed which I have recently replaced with the CS OSS. I've carried the CS Bush Ranger and have an Ontario Helles Belle. Because the law in Oregon does not allow for the concealed carry of double edged blades I've neutered the top edge of my OSS but have resisted this for my HB.

When I first received my new model HB about two years ago My teacher and I were very disappointed because it was a very heavy clunky feeling knife compared to the one my teacher had had. Fortunately, I found a guy at the OKCA show who was didn't like the lightness of his older model, so we traded and I threw in a little something else in appreciation.

Just for background you should know that two years ago I developed a form of muscular dystrophy called myasthenia gravis that left me considerably debilitated compared to my former life, though I am recovering.

What I've found with the large Bowie knives though is that the handle shape is tremendously important for me as I have small hands. It is also very important considering my weakened grip.

If you'll look at the handles of the three, HB, Laredo and Natchez, you'll see that the HB and L have something in common; they taper down to the guard. The N has a bit of a palm swell. For me, I've found that the tapering handle makes the knife unstable in my hand because it is "disappearing" just where I need handle material to enhance the control of the knife in the snap and back cuts. The only way I can overcome this is to reinforce the knife in my hand by running it right up against the guard. However, as you may know, Keating teaches palming the butt of even a large knife to get more length.

As an aside, the first time I met Jerry Hossom at an OKCA show, I picked up one of his bowies and as I manipulated it I palmed the butt just as I'd been trained. He looked at me and said "you've been trained in Keating bowie haven't you?" I said yes I had and asked how he knew. He said that the only people he'd seen palming the butt were those influenced by Keating training.

But back to the knife handles. Although I haven't had the chance to hold one yet, I see that the Natchez has a palm swell which for me would be needed for better control. One thing that does concern me though is the roundness of the handle. I guess we'll figure that out when we get hold of one.

 

[epoluo]

i saw a beautiful bowie knife in a movie named The Alamo. a man named jim bowie hold the knife. i thought that it was him who made the bowie knife firstly

 

[vikingblade]

Tonie..great post

The CS OSS.. Interesting. Ive read Keating likes the sub-hilt fighter, OSS and Black Bear Classic. What is your overall impression of the sub-hilt fighters. I know most either love em or hate em. Its a shame you had to neutor your OSS's double edge. Kinda wonder how dull is enough to be legal.

Your Ontario Hell's Belle being clunky is disheartening. Maybe was a bad one, or maybe the newest..within the last year are better. BUT, they are discontinued right? When did they stopped producing them? Its a shame. I suppose lots of them floating around on ebay. Anyone know how to tell a good handing one without actually handling it Tough to get what you want on the internet. Wouldnt it be awesome if Cold Steel would do the Belle in carbon steel with real wood grips, razor sharp edge and clip Oh well.. Probably just dreamin.

The Laredo seems nice, and the big Natchez is sounding better all the time. Too bad bout the lack of full tang. Although, if kept as a fighter, it probably doesnt matter. As far as the Natchez's handle being round, in some pics it does look roundish, others it looks quite flattened on sides..

It hasnt been mentioned yet, but how does the Camillus OVB Fisk Southwest Bowie stack up as a fighting bowie. It sure is purty, big and light. Anyone handled them? Unfortunately, once again discontinued.

 

[Mike Sastre]

Tonie,

I'm having a hard time picturing an Ontario Hell's Belle with a "heavy clunky feeling". With all the different OHBs people have sent me for a Southern Comfort, coupled with all the ones I've set up in "package deals", I'll bet I've handled more of them than anyone outside of the factory. I've NEVER encountered one that felt heavy or clunky. The only change that was made to the Ontario Hell's Belle was going from a highly polished blade to a satin finish. Other than that, same blade, same steel, same handle. While I'll never call myself an expert, I have looked into this Bowie thing a little bit. In using the Bowie techniques, your hand will be in different grips according to what you are trying to do. The extended sabre grip (with the end of the handle backed up by your palm) is used for committed thrusts using full body weight and to "steal" distance. When doing backcuts, your hand will be nearer the guard allowing for a better control. Likewise with snap cuts. PM me your teacher's name, maybe I know him.

 

[reholli]

How about a couple of lesser-known suspects?

There's the G.Sakai HSEK...an oldie now, somewhat pricey and hard to find, but alot of knife:

Then there's the Boker Plus Valkyrie, also alot of knife, but newer, easy to find at a good price:

Ray

 

[Mike Sastre]

Cutlery Shoppe had the HSEK under the name Teton Bowie a long time ago - got a couple. Definitely a good knife! Just wish the false edge was sharpened.

 

[Tonie Nichols]

Tonie..great post

The CS OSS.. Interesting. Ive read Keating likes the sub-hilt fighter, OSS and Black Bear Classic. What is your overall impression of the sub-hilt fighters. I know most either love em or hate em. Its a shame you had to neutor your OSS's double edge. Kinda wonder how dull is enough to be legal.

Your Ontario Hell's Belle being clunky is disheartening. Maybe was a bad one, or maybe the newest..within the last year are better. BUT, they are discontinued right? When did they stopped producing them? Its a shame. I suppose lots of them floating around on ebay. Anyone know how to tell a good handing one without actually handling it Tough to get what you want on the internet. Wouldnt it be awesome if Cold Steel would do the Belle in carbon steel with real wood grips, razor sharp edge and clip Oh well.. I thinkProbably just dreamin.

The Laredo seems nice, and the big Natchez is sounding better all the time. Too bad bout the lack of full tang. Although, if kept as a fighter, it probably doesnt matter. As far as the Natchez's handle being round, in some pics it does look roundish, others it looks quite flattened on sides..

It hasnt been mentioned yet, but how does the Camillus OVB Fisk Southwest Bowie stack up as a fighting bowie. It sure is purty, big and light. Anyone handled them? Unfortunately, once again discontinued.

Thanx for the kind words VB,

I have a Black Bear Classic and it just seems too big for my hand. For me, it feels extremely handle heavy and I seem to have a little difficulty finding a comfortable grip between the placement of the subhilt and the swelling of the back of the handle. I also think I've been spoiled by the grippy, tacky feel of kraton as opposed to all that polished material. The OSS feels like a totally different knife to me.

Ya' know, I'm just not a big fan of polished wood handles. Anything like that the I intend to carry, I wrap with baseball bat grip tape.

While I've never spoken with Keating personally regarding his opinion of a subhilt, I have seen posts in which he has stated his approval of them. When I first ordered the OSS I was thinking about cutting the rubber "trigger" off, but after I played with it for awhile I realized it fit my hand really well. It was then that I noticed that the center of the handle of the OSS would have been very straight without the subhilt. I soon came to realize that the subhilt on the OSS enhanced my ability to manipulate the blade in ways the Black Bear did not. But I'll never get rid of the BB as it has some great sentimental value attached to it.

I really hated to take that top edge off too, so I ordered a second one that I could leave complete My next project is to fabricate a real brass fighting guard to replace that rubber one. I hear that JB Weld works quite nicely for attaching guards. My problem is I have to do all the shaping, fitting and attaching by hand because I don't have any power tools. I haven't gotten the brass yet but I suspect it will look something like a flat bottomed U or V when I get done.

I had a spear point Keating Crossada for a couple of years and my teacher had three of the aluminum trainers. Those guards were amazingly effective in trapping and manipulating other knives in practice. You can use any knife to "fight" with, but if I'm really considering knife on knife contact I want a real guard on mine. In my opinion, based on our sparring, a true "fighting" knife should, at the very least, have a cross guard. About four years ago I helped with a martial arts demonstration at the OKCA show with my partner and I demonstrating western bowie. We had a couple of those big ol' cheap Pakistani pieces, he had the Arkansas Toothpick and I had the wide Bowie. Of course the edges had been removed. I had bent the guards around to act as blade catchers and they worked great.

Wow, THANK YOU for that beautiful picture of the Natchez handle! I see exactly what you mean, that is much clearer. And I wouldn't be too concerned about the tang. The Natchez is not meant to be a survival knife. If somebody wants to cut down trees and make firewood they should get an axe. I'm thinking that this knife is far stronger than it needs to be for it's design intentions.

As for that clunky feeling HB, it could be that the one I had was a total anomaly, I have only felt the two that I owned. My teacher had had an opportunity to play with a Bagwell custom HB and had handled only one other Ontario version before mine.

He did have one of the Camillus OVB Fisks for awhile though and it was thoroughly awesome. It felt light, it was fiercely fast, wickedly sharp and with the slight drop at the butt it was ferocious in the snap and back cut. If it had come with a real fighting guard I would have taken it over the HB any day. But like you say, ahh well.

With the state of the economy right now and the uncertainty of the near future of my employment, I may not be getting a Natchez any time soon.

But one can hope!

 

[Tonie Nichols]

Tonie,

I'm having a hard time picturing an Ontario Hell's Belle with a "heavy clunky feeling". With all the different OHBs people have sent me for a Southern Comfort, coupled with all the ones I've set up in "package deals", I'll bet I've handled more of them than anyone outside of the factory. I've NEVER encountered one that felt heavy or clunky. The only change that was made to the Ontario Hell's Belle was going from a highly polished blade to a satin finish. Other than that, same blade, same steel, same handle. While I'll never call myself an expert, I have looked into this Bowie thing a little bit. In using the Bowie techniques, your hand will be in different grips according to what you are trying to do. The extended sabre grip (with the end of the handle backed up by your palm) is used for committed thrusts using full body weight and to "steal" distance. When doing backcuts, your hand will be nearer the guard allowing for a better control. Likewise with snap cuts. PM me your teacher's name, maybe I know him.

Mike,

Maybe I should have said "relatively" for that style of knife. We had several fighting Bowies in our collections that were definitely livelier. We also had several "fighting" knives that definitely were not! None the less, there was a definite difference between the two.

It always amuses me to get to the OKCA show and find some maker with a beautiful boat anchor of a Bowie and a plaque declaring it to be something like "best new fighting bowie of show". I've even asked a few of them if they've ever trained with a fighting knife or if they've handled a lot of fighting knives and they always answer no. I usually drop it there, but I had one guy ask me why I was asking. I oh so politely and respectfully inquired as to how he knew that his was a fighting knife if he didn't know what one felt like. This gentleman was honest enough to admit that fighting knives weren't really his interest he just wanted to make a big impressive looking Bowie. And I will say he succeeded.

Yeah, I think I've heard that you might know something about Bowies

And you are right, hand position will change. One of the things I've found interesting about the OSS is that the butt is absolutely a marvel of engineering. Not only is it slightly dropped, but the sides neck in and then flare out at the butt as well. When palming the knife my little finger is off the handle entirely and supporting the back of the butt, my third finger is locked right into the curve of the drop and the flare and my second and first fingers curl around the handle just behind the subhilt. It has proven to be both a very agile and a very strong grip for me. I've got a custom knife that has something similar to it and I find that this is the position I use when snap and back cutting.

 

[Mike Sastre]

Tonie,

While there are some people making excellent fighters, I definitely agree that the majority don't have clue as to how much of the deal is in the feel. As Bill Bagwell has often said, "Most people don't know WHAT they don't know". At least that maker was honest with you.

I like the OSS (for a little knife ) - put one in a Southern Comfort and you won't realize you've got it on. Excellent inexpensive carry package for those who don't believe how easy it is to carry something larger, or just don't want the weight. Try to keep at least one of these packaged up with a SC. I'd post a picture but I'll be leaving for Blade shortly and it is packed in the "toy store". Triggering aspect of the subhilt works very well. Maybe I'll post a picture if I still have it when I get back. I like the Carbon Vs best.

 

[vikingblade]

Thanks Tonie, yeah I gotta check out the CS Sub-hilts soon. Not as big as Id normally like, but they look like sweet fighters. They must be lightning fast. The Crossada Is supposed to be pretty incredible. Definately more dagger than bowie. Strange, considering JAK's love of the bowie. Can the Crossada back-cut anywhere near as well as a bagwell design bowie? However, In the thrust, the Crossasda looks like it would be viscious.

Im still trying to decide whether to pull the trigger on the Ontario Hell's Belle. Ive only been able to find two in depth reviews, and there was mention of the tip bending, and thick edges. Granted, these were old reviews...and were early versions of the Belle. Maybe these issues have been fixed..dunno. Still, a concern. Has anyone seen any recent reviews, or done any cutting/thrusting tests with theirs? I know they are not camp knives, however, a serious fighting bowie's tip should not bend, break etc.. if it makes contact with bone, soft wood, belt buckle, another blade or gun. Also, the edges should be thin, not thick...too much resistance in the cut. Seems like the early reviewed Belle's, were made with a real fear of breakage, so they went thick and soft. Has this changed??? Have any of you guys tested your Belle's on something other than paper? What were the results?

 

[crossada]

the crossada is my favorite knife design hence the name i have the original design with spear point. after talking to MAAJAK for about two hours on the phone about the design he said he prefers it too because it almost disappears in the blind spots if that makes sense. as far as a better back cutter i doubt it but the thrust is deadlier anyway imo.

i also wouldn't think there would be a difference in penetration between the two in the thrust either because both versions are dbl edged with alot of mass.

unfortunately the crossada is not being made anymore as Robert Newton took on other interests but MAAJAK is working on a couple of deals with some reputable manufactures to make it again but in more of a mass produced fashion.

i will try and post pics of my custom version later today.