Figred I'd ask this here....

[Blade_Crazy]

I think I might...I say might...be able to give a little insight on this because for over seven years I had a sebenza in my pocket and now I EDC a Sage 2. (sold one sebenza, gave the other to my son.) First are you aware of the economics principle of diminishing returns? it pretty much states that at first a small increase in energy/money pays large dividends but a as the money/energy input goes up, the returns are smaller. Here I'll give a couple examples.

Me doing a hundred meter sprint. I am fourty-three and overweight. My time would be extremely poor right now, and I would most likely fall down panting for about half an hour after I finished. Now let's say I take a very moderate training program of jogging ten minutes a day three days a week and doing two sprints on the weekends. total energy 40 minutes. I have no doubt that I could easily cut my sprint time in half in about two or three weeks. Now say I want to cut it further. I double my workout routine and even go on a diet. Three weeks later my sprint time would still no doubt be an improvement, (And my doctor would be ecstatic!) but I would not halve my time, maybe only run a couple seconds faster. even though I am putting in twice the amount of energy into training. If we continued, eventually I could be training twenty hours a week but getting extremely small improvements in my times.

The same thing holds true in manufacturing. Take a ten dollar gas station knife. Cheap pot metal blade poorly fitting lock. Add fifty dollars and you have a decent knife that holds a decent edge and has much better fit and finish like a delica VG-10. I would say that first fifty dollars buys you a knife that is easily four or five times as good as that gas station cheapy. We've got a good solid lock, a good blade steel, good quality scales. Add another fifty dollars and we get improvements again, say this time we have a Para 2. It's better again but this time our fifty dollars hasn't bought us a fourfold increase in quality, I don't think it's even twice as good. While the S30V blade holds an edge longer than VG10, in my experience it doesn't hold an edge twice as long...maybe one and a half times. We now have a g-10 scale and I think that's better than FRN just not alot better. (more expensive anyways.) Add another fifty dollars and we have a Sage 2 (or theirabouts) what is our increase in performance this time? very little. Same blade steel. We moved to titanium scales that are more expensive to buy and manufacture. (the question of whether they are better is more of a personal preference thing, I love Ti.) When buying a Sebenza that last two hundred dollars buys you improvenments but if you aren't looking carefully you won't notice them. Perfectly centered blade. Totally even grinds. You're paying for mechanical precision. And Chris Reeve wins the Excellence in Manufacturing award at the annual blade show almost every year because that is where his knives excell.


Now for my two cents. The mechanical precision that is present in the sebenza is overkill. Yes to make and market the knives he does cost about what he charges. Chris Reeve does not operate on giant profit margins. I appreciate uility. I realized that a sage 2 was just as capable of accomplishing all the cutting tasks as my Sebenza. While it doesn't have a bushing, the top of the blade isn't chamfered, and the edges of the scales aren't finished, the Sage two is a knife that will easily last the rest of my life, just like the Sebenza. I chose to give up the mechanical precision that affected the utility not at all. You could take my argument farther and say that the Para 2 has the same utility as the sage 2 and you would be correct. that's where preference comes in. The sweet spot for me when thinking about utility, preference, and precision right now is the sage two. If I valued money more and earned less the sweet spot might be a Delica or even a Byrd knife. There isn't any one right answer for everyone, just a right answer for you. If you're really interested I suggest look for a good deal on a used sebenza. If you find it isn't for you sell it for a very small loss. If you like it, sell it and get one of the pretty ones.

Grizz

This is an excellent description and is helpful to me and i wasn't even looking to be helped, Thanks

 

[Zatx]

I think I might...I say might...be able to give a little insight on this because for over seven years I had a sebenza in my pocket and now I EDC a Sage 2. (sold one sebenza, gave the other to my son.) First are you aware of the economics principle of diminishing returns? it pretty much states that at first a small increase in energy/money pays large dividends but a as the money/energy input goes up, the returns are smaller. Here I'll give a couple examples.

Me doing a hundred meter sprint. I am fourty-three and overweight. My time would be extremely poor right now, and I would most likely fall down panting for about half an hour after I finished. Now let's say I take a very moderate training program of jogging ten minutes a day three days a week and doing two sprints on the weekends. total energy 40 minutes. I have no doubt that I could easily cut my sprint time in half in about two or three weeks. Now say I want to cut it further. I double my workout routine and even go on a diet. Three weeks later my sprint time would still no doubt be an improvement, (And my doctor would be ecstatic!) but I would not halve my time, maybe only run a couple seconds faster. even though I am putting in twice the amount of energy into training. If we continued, eventually I could be training twenty hours a week but getting extremely small improvements in my times.

The same thing holds true in manufacturing. Take a ten dollar gas station knife. Cheap pot metal blade poorly fitting lock. Add fifty dollars and you have a decent knife that holds a decent edge and has much better fit and finish like a delica VG-10. I would say that first fifty dollars buys you a knife that is easily four or five times as good as that gas station cheapy. We've got a good solid lock, a good blade steel, good quality scales. Add another fifty dollars and we get improvements again, say this time we have a Para 2. It's better again but this time our fifty dollars hasn't bought us a fourfold increase in quality, I don't think it's even twice as good. While the S30V blade holds an edge longer than VG10, in my experience it doesn't hold an edge twice as long...maybe one and a half times. We now have a g-10 scale and I think that's better than FRN just not alot better. (more expensive anyways.) Add another fifty dollars and we have a Sage 2 (or theirabouts) what is our increase in performance this time? very little. Same blade steel. We moved to titanium scales that are more expensive to buy and manufacture. (the question of whether they are better is more of a personal preference thing, I love Ti.) When buying a Sebenza that last two hundred dollars buys you improvenments but if you aren't looking carefully you won't notice them. Perfectly centered blade. Totally even grinds. You're paying for mechanical precision. And Chris Reeve wins the Excellence in Manufacturing award at the annual blade show almost every year because that is where his knives excell.


Now for my two cents. The mechanical precision that is present in the sebenza is overkill. Yes to make and market the knives he does cost about what he charges. Chris Reeve does not operate on giant profit margins. I appreciate uility. I realized that a sage 2 was just as capable of accomplishing all the cutting tasks as my Sebenza. While it doesn't have a bushing, the top of the blade isn't chamfered, and the edges of the scales aren't finished, the Sage two is a knife that will easily last the rest of my life, just like the Sebenza. I chose to give up the mechanical precision that affected the utility not at all. You could take my argument farther and say that the Para 2 has the same utility as the sage 2 and you would be correct. that's where preference comes in. The sweet spot for me when thinking about utility, preference, and precision right now is the sage two. If I valued money more and earned less the sweet spot might be a Delica or even a Byrd knife. There isn't any one right answer for everyone, just a right answer for you. If you're really interested I suggest look for a good deal on a used sebenza. If you find it isn't for you sell it for a very small loss. If you like it, sell it and get one of the pretty ones.

Grizz

Great post and very informative.

I guess like you say it boils down to preferences. A knife is a knife. It cuts stuff. As long as long as they are made with the same basic materials they should perform about the same. So it boils down to how much you are willing to spend for better fit and finish. I guess you could say it is similar to cars. Whether I buy a Toyota or a Mercedes, they are both going to get me from Point A to Point B. The differences are fit and finish. It also affects their resale value. A car or knife with better fit and finish holds its value longer.

In looking at used versus new Sebenzas there is very little cost difference (unless they have a good amount of wear and tear). So in theory a person could buy a new one and if they found that the fit and finish wasn't worth it to them they could turn around and sell it for a slight loss. Which in my mind is just the cost of trying it out... basically paying for a test drive.

I buy knives for their fit and finish, which is what drew me to Spydercos. They make beautifully made knives. My enjoyment from knives comes from having an example of precision engineering and manufacturing, that also cuts stuff. Let's face it, I'm not buying knives because I'm using them hard. I don't even come close to using a knife to its full potential or capabilities. The scariest things my knives see are a box, clam shell packaging, or piece of thread. I have come across cutting tasks that are tougher than this, but I've reached for a lower quality blade that I wouldn't "mess up", to protect the finish or edge of my Spyderco. From what I have seen and read about the Sebenza it could be both a knife that you admire the craftsmanship of AND handle any cutting task I throw at it. It may not make much sense, but in my mind even though the Sebenza would cost more, I wouldn't be as protective of it as some of my Spydercos.