File Knives.....a few Q's

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gordonquixote

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Dec 18, 2009
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Warning, newbie here....:)

I don't know enough about belt grinders to make an educated (and economical decision) so I thought I would start out by practicing on a few Nicholson file knives....I have a few questions.

What do you cut the rough shape with? Can they be cut or do I need to grind them? The first file I tried practically punched my hacksaw blade in the face. Total no-go.

Before forging/hammering a file, do I have to grind off the teeth, or just hammer 'em out?

Is a file a bad medium for a newb like me....should I be using bar stock or something else (I want to use the files though)?

Thanks in advance.

I emailed spark about memberships....I won't be freeloading anymore after I get a reply! I can't search yet, so I'm gonna just post this.
 
If you don't have a belt grinder or a heat-treat oven/forge, files are probably not the best thing to start with. I know some people here may disagree with me, but my reasons for this are as follows:

-files must be annealed before working. Files are fully through-hardened in the range of 58-62 Rc depending on the manufacturer. Any knife you make out of a fully hardened file will not have much lateral toughness and will break or fail when subjected to a side load over a thin cross-section (like near the tip of a knife, or near the edge). Some people will re-temper the full-hard file and call it good, I prefer to start from scratch with a fully annealed file so that I can eliminate a lot of guessing. Also, a fully annealed file can be cut on a bandsaw or with a hacksaw and is easier to shape and drill.

-using recycled steel is, in general, probably not a good idea for a beginner. While you are learning, it would make much more sense to use a known steel and have it heat-treated professionally. That way, if something goes wrong, you have a much clearer idea of what the issue is rather than guessing because you are unsure of the steel you are using in the first place.

-You are going to wreck knives, it is inevitable and part of learning. I know it is tempting to use free mystery steel, but you will learn more from using a piece of barstock of a known composition, especially if you begin to learn about heat-treatment and metallurgy. You will, in my opinion, learn more and progress faster if you eliminate as many unnecessary variables as possible.

Just my opinion, have a good one,

Nathan
 
Hacksaw blades won't touch a file which is still in the hardened state. To shape hardened steel you need to use abrasives, either a grinder of some sort or a cut-off wheel. If you anneal the file first you can work it with hacksaws and files. I'm not sure why you would want to do this if you intend to forge it into a blade, though, in that case you could just forge to shape.
At any rate when I use a file for a blade I anneal first, then grind the teeth off so they don't form cold shuts during forging.

As an aside, I once contacted Nicholson to ask them what steel they used for their mill batsard files and how I should heat treat blades made from them. To my surprise, I got a phone call in reply and had an interesting, if brief, discussion with one of their tech people. I was informed that they used an alloy which is very similar to W-2 and that it could be heat treated as such.
 
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Thanks guys....I was wondering if as a beginner I would be spinning my wheels by starting with a file. Sounds like I need to get some known stock and start there.

I'm attending a forge session tomorrow....can't wait!
 
gordonquixote said:
Thanks guys....I was wondering if as a beginner I would be spinning my wheels by starting with a file. Sounds like I need to get some known stock and start there.

I'm attending a forge session tomorrow....can't wait!
Click to expand...

It's really up to you. I think that if everyone saw it this way, then a lot of folks who are making knives now might never have started. Dabbling and experimentation is what leads some into the craft, so I try not to discourage anyone from doing this. I did and I'm not convinced that my first forged knife would have turned out any better if I had used this or that alloy from a supplier. After all, I was using a magnet for temp. readings, quenching in olive oil and tempering with a torch. With this technology, I think most beginners are just as well off with a file, since it is likely a simple carbon steel anyway.
If you are out-sourcing your heat treat or have the equipment to do it yourself with some precision, then starting with known material may be of serious benefit.
 
I am a proponent of using known steel. I'm a bigger proponent of JUST MAKE A KNIFE! Get the ball rolling and don't stop! MAKE A DANG KNIFE!

Now... files, I'd really only recommend using a known brand name file. Nicholson, Simonds, Black Diamond and Cooper are names that come to mind any other brand name would probably be better off to fix the file and keep using it.

You must be able to anneal the file, so you'll need the following:

A high temp heat source like a forge or heat treating oven. If you don't have a forge you can make a cheap one just to heat treat and anneal using charcoal as fuel.

You'll need a container of vermiculite (please get the non-asbestos bearing kind) the vermiculite can be found at most gardening supply centers. Get a nice lidded metal container for it, you'll be using this stuff the rest of your life in the craft :)

A magnet


Steps:

Fire your forge up

Start heating some junk steel to orange/yellow hot

Use the junk steel to carve a slot large enough for your file and leave the junk steel in the vermiculite

Heat your file to non-magnetic, now take it a little beyond that color and hold it there for about 1-2 minutes....

Put in the vermiculite trough, cover with more vermiculite, put the top on and come back tomorrow


Now file the teeth off, if they don't come off fairly easy you'll need to anneal all over again but hold it at a higher temp.


YES I KNOW THIS ISN'T SCIENTIFIC... it'll get people in the ballpark and they can make a knife, THEN after they suffer the trials and tribulations of unknown steels they'll join us on the dark side of known steel or they'll get damn good at identifying steel :D
 
Come over to the dark side and save yourself all sorts of problems.

Order a bar of 1084 from Aldo, it's known steel, shapes beautifully, heat treats easily and only costs about $20.00 for a bar about 4 feet long.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=684654

I made my first 4 knives out of files. What a pain in the A##! The bottom of every tooth is a stress riser, by the time you get to the bottom of the tooth there's not a lot of good steel left, and at a couple bucks per file, it's cheaper to buy new steel.

-Page
 
I'm with Will on this. I'm a newb too, about 6 or 7 knives under my belt, all but the last 3 from files. I annealed my first files in the woodstove, and any of us living in the northern climes should not have a hard time doing it this way. Just chuck the file in the middle of the fire towards the end of the night and leave it there until the next day.
You'll have have a fully soft piece of steel that you can then grind or file easily and it will cut just fine with a hacksaw. Traditionalists will scream, but an angle grinder is a quick slick trick to doing the initial shaping and tooth removal. Use files to finish that part.
If you're going to forge the shape you can use the annealed file just as you would any steel.
Yeah, it aint gonna be a guild certified piece of museum display, but you will have made a blade for next to nothing, learned from the experience, and you'll probably want to do more and better the next time. Set your goal at a reasonable level the first few times. Make simple kitchen knives. Leave the Bowie until later. My first knife is way crude compared to my 6th, but I made it with my bare hands and I use it in my kitchen all the time and I love it because I made it. My son (and grand kids I hope) will get it someday, and he'll be able to compare it to my later work and marvel at what I did.
Like the ads said....just do it! Don't waste time waiting for the best materials and methods. Start with what you have on hand. Go for it and learn as you go. It's really fun too by the way. Nothing ventured nothing gained.
 
Thank you all!

Will and shoeman....yesterday I took both of your advice to some extent (no forge to play in yet). I had a nice roaring oak fire going all day yesterday and kept moving two files to the hottest part of the fire. I made sure they went past critical (couldn't get them into the yellow range though obviously) and by the time I went to sleep they were bedded down in the coals and cooled slowly overnight. After about 8 hours of cooling they were down to slightly warm.

I know I'm not exactly following the best method, but I'm going nuts here not being able to start. I won't have access to a forge until Saturday and wanted to at least give it a shot. If nothing else, I have a big stack of files left.

I fully understand and appreciate the advice to get blanks of known steel, which I will do.....I'm just having fun in the meantime. I'll try the jigsaw/wheel grinder tomorrow and post up if the low-tech annealing worked.

I made sure a magnet had no attraction and they cooled down very slowly so we'll see.

Thanks again, super excited here. A guy gave me purple heartwood, lacewood, grenadillo, padouk, cherry, teak, and tiger maple so I have lots of raw materials....just no skills (YET!)
 
Well done! Now hit 'em with a file or hacksaw and see if they are soft. You'll know if they are not as the file or saw will just skip and slide around. If they are then get to work!
I eyeballed my first outline. Now I use a combo of machinist's blue and Sharpies to draw a profile.
One more cheater tip, get one more file the same thickness as the ones you use as blanks. Measure it's center line on the very end, mark that, then grind both sides of the end down to a tip at that mark. That will give you a scribe to mark the blade centerline with. No need to anneal that one. Use a bench grinder and sander. To use it, blue up the cutting edge of the blank, lay the blank down on a largish flat surface and lying the scribe file down as well, running the point of the scribe file along the blued edge. Now you have an edge line to work to.
 
Can I offer some advice? ..... well permission's never stopped me before :D

Instead of wailing away at some steel try spending this week looking at and drawing knives.. lots of knives.... ones you think will be a good first knife, knives you'd like to make in 10 years but just draw a looooottttt of knives. Go through pages of the gallery, go through pages of the for sale threads, go to the other galleries on BF and then look up maker's sites have a style you like. Then draw more knives.

I like to draw blades full size and will hold my hand up to them to see how they may fit and work. I control the size of the knife with the size of the paper, a normal sheet width makes a nice EDC or small hunter/hiker type of blade, turn the page other way and you have a good large hunter or fighter. I have a large sketch pad for my big bowies/choppy knives. I'll just rough sketch blades and handles then maybe combine styles if they don't fit on the current blade design.

In my opinion drawing helps you develop an "eye" and it's a lot easier to erase a pencil line than to try to figure out how to fix some steel. I really think drawing a lot will help your blades to develop a "face".
 
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