File sword: "Best crucible steel"

Mecha

Mecha

Titanium Bladesmith
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
Joined
Dec 27, 2013
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I have a giant file that would like to be forged into rapier of sorts. The thing is almost two feet long, and 3/4" diameter square stock with a distal taper, just begging to become a small sword. The marking says "Zenith" or "Star Zenith," "Marshall Wells," and "Best Crucible Steel."

Although I couldn't find much information online, it seems that the same steel may have been used for knives in the past. The file was likely made in the early 1900s. One interesting piece of information is from the Zknives.com steel comparison chart, but not sure if it's the same origin:

http://zknives.com/knives/steels/star-zenith.shtml

It refers to extremely high tungsten tool steel, about 18%, with references dating back to the roaring 20s era and earlier.
Any info about this type of steel, it's history, or the forging of high-tungsten steel would be much appreciated! :)

Here are pics of the file:

rsUy9bC.jpg


ZGFBq2p.jpg
 
So, it's basically T1 high speed steel... although why a file would be made from that is beyond me. Maybe it was meant for use at the lathe?
If that stuff does indeed have 18% tungsten, then it will be quite red-hard and very difficult to forge. It will be extremely wear resistant to grind, and require fairly complex heat treatment with austenitization occurring at what are normally forge welding temps.
I'd leave it as a big, super cool old file, and use it for stuff if it was me...
 
Salem Straub said:
If that stuff does indeed have 18% tungsten, then it will be quite red-hard and very difficult to forge. It will be extremely wear resistant to grind, and require fairly complex heat treatment with austenitization occurring at what are normally forge welding temps.
I'd leave it as a big, super cool old file, and use it for stuff if it was me...
Click to expand...

Sounds like good advice. :]

Should it get forged out, the plan was to preserve the original manufacturer's marks and leave that area as a square ricasso, and use a small forging press for the bulk of the forging work, followed by a pro heat treatment out-of-house. There's plenty of other blades to be made though, no reason to wantonly ruin a large and strange file!
 
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You might be assuming too much . First do a spark test ,that will tell a lot with tungsten. You will get few "stars" in the spark shower and they will be a deep orange . A very high tungsten steel to me doesn't seem to be an appropriate choice for a file. Total length ? Let me know about the spark test then I'll investigate further.
 
Spark test is consistent with high-carbon steel, yellow with many forks; there is no indication of tungsten. So much for that idea!
 
If I may. :D
I have really come to appreciate cool tools, like this file. I think the file would like to be left alone but if you can turn this file into something just as cool, do it.
Salem gave good advice, Sammy.
rolf
 
Mecha said:
Spark test is consistent with high-carbon steel, yellow with many forks; there is no indication of tungsten. So much for that idea!
Click to expand...

I have one of these. It's a damn giant. Mine came from a machine shop that closed in the mid 90s. My father used to push trash at a landfill and brought home 3 large galvanized tubs of their files that they threw away. All Nicholson, Hellers, and johnsons. I bet he has 150 various sizes files in his garage still in their boxes and wrapped in paper. There are a few unique ones like this beast. I use mine still. I don't know if I'd repurpose mine, I'll probably never see another one.
 
Oh man, I am so envious of that huge score of old files... at least someone got them. I'm sure that if I became aware of even a tenth of the appalling waste of tools that goes on everyday in this country, I'd have a stroke and die on the spot.
Mete, I thought it strange that a file would be made from a high speed steel, as well.
Mecha, having it sent out for HT would be the right thing to do, although now that it seems that the actual alloy type is likely unknown, it would be hard to know what to tell the HT provider.
 
Salem Straub said:
Oh man, I am so envious of that huge score of old files... at least someone got them. I'm sure that if I became aware of even a tenth of the appalling waste of tools that goes on everyday in this country, I'd have a stroke and die on the spot.
Click to expand...

It baffles me at the enthusiasm that some folks have to scrap stuff out and make pennies, when it has 100x's more value as a useful item.
 
I am a file fanatic, and love that file you posted a pic of, Mecha. I would like to see that file kept and used as a file. I get the hankering for making a knife/sword from something you scrounged up, or grandad's old files, etc. But I highly recommend that a different KNOWN steel be used to make your sword. Not saying this wouldn't turn out well, just that I would keep that dude and go with a different route if I wanted a short sword or what have you. Not trying to discourage you in this regard at all, tho.
 
No worries tool fanatics, the giant file will be left intact!

I assumed it was just high-carbon steel, but then found references to the high-tungsten steel, and figured that if it was possibly true, it might be worth getting it analyzed along with a few pieces of titanium that I must send out. File knives, ok....but a file sword? Just a muse. :D
 
Considering what's happened to companies like Nicholson going off shore and quality dropping those thrown away files are valuable !!! Hard to tell what you get in files today.Warped ! Case hardened ,etc !!
 
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