Filipino Barong Vs Khuks...

Gorgeous barong pic, Fed. Barongs definitely have lines that I love. Very elegant.

The failure involved the pitch/laha. Basically, it separated inside the handle during a carenza (shadow boxing type drill) session. I had worked the barong through a quick series of movements with rapid directional changes (rendondo-snap-figure-8). There was a loud "click" on the last backstroke. I stopped immediately.

After some rotation and tugging, I was able to remove the blade and pitch from the handle as a unit. The thing was that the blade had passed the flex, wiggle and tug tests that I did with it each time before I used it.

As a side note, I had almost exactly the same thing happen with a partial tanged village khuk (the so-called "bulldog" model) yesterday while I was limbing a dead spruce. Only this time I was chopping and didn't hear the "click". The blade went flying. Luckily, I wasn't hurt. Again, it was a clean separation of the laha from the wood. I'll post a pic later.

S.
 
spence:

just the thought of a blade snapping in the handle, or sending it flying...man what a blademan's nightmare. was the barong a kc? where'd you get it? antique or production?
 
4-Ranges:

Worst nightmare is right.

It was a WW2-era barong. At the time ('89/90, pre-e-mail and web), I couldn't find any modern production Filipino blades that weren't junk. Maybe I wasn't looking in the right places, but I even had a friend in the FI look around over there without good results.

The barong in question was in very good condition and, as I mentioned, it passed all the basic tests. Essentially, it was the newest example I could find that a) wasn't obviously a tourist piece and b) was in a state that I would consider using it.

I used it for about a year with no problems. Then...

The tang itself didn't snap. Neither did the blade. Many, if not most, Asian blades are "glued" to the handle. The glue completely pulled away from the inside of the handle in my case. I must add that the blade remained wedged in place.

As I mentioned, I was able to catch the warning signs in time, so injury wasn't an issue.

S.
 
spence:

the fact that most asian blades are glued to the handle is what makes me hesitate from buying a kc combat barong. This blade is glue to its handle as well.

I know the shandigan barong is glued AND pinned to the handle, but I'm not sure how that will hold either.

also, I read on valiantco's site that they also use the glueing method, but somehow they have the tip of the tang heating so that, when inserted into the wood handle, the handle melts slightly around the tang. That barong is something that I'm considering also.

However, I did read in one of the posts here that cold steel is developing a barong for next year. That'd be pretty sweet.
 
I understand 4-R.

My experience with the barong didn't phase me too badly. After all, maybe I shouldn't have been using something 50 years old.

Yesterday's experience of laha/wood separation, this time with a modern piece, has me contemplating the wisdom of pinning/riveting/peening the tang to the handle in any blade intended for use.

S.
 
A few months ago Cold Steel was showing around a proto of a barong, based upon an antique piece in Guro Ron Balicki's collection. I believe it will be made of CS's "Carbon V" steel and (mercifully) have a wood handle instead of kraton. The grip felt quite large, which a lot of Americans will like. Some of the antiques have grips designed for smaller hands.
 
Originally posted by DancesWithKnives
A few months ago Cold Steel was showing around a proto of a barong, based upon an antique piece in Guro Ron Balicki's collection. I believe it will be made of CS's "Carbon V" steel and (mercifully) have a wood handle instead of kraton. The grip felt quite large, which a lot of Americans will like. Some of the antiques have grips designed for smaller hands.
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DwK, any idea of what the proposed price range might be? Some of CS's products are over priced IMO, but a nice size Barong made from Carbon-V may be worth it. I know there's been a lot of speculation as to what the Carbon-V actually is, but whatever it is I believe it to be an excellent knife steel.
A good coat of cold blue helps cut down on the rust factor and the fact of a wood handle brings a big Hurray from me!!!!:D
Something else to lust for even though the Valiant Co's Damascus Barong may top the CS model.
;)
 
the fact that most asian blades are glued to the handle is what makes me hesitate from buying a kc combat barong.
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Here are some Asian examples that are far sturdier. It has taken me a few years to track these down, but in the process I found not only when and where were made but also a few active knifemakers. One of them plans to join Bladeforums shortly, so I will let him introduce the knives.

The examples below are older knives. The smaller one dates to 1921 and the larger one is perhaps from around the WWII period.

n2s
 

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Spence, sounds like the pitch dried out. Was it particularly crumbly after you took it out? Any temp or humidity changes at the time? I dont mind pitch and partial tangs however unfortunately the stuff will always eventually dry out (heavy usage seems to accelerate the corrosion), but its relatively easy to fix. Then again with the attitude of the time in which these things were made permanance wasnt something necessarily desired. The ability to remove and replace bits was an important factor to alot of warriors who were on budgets both in good (eg. upgrade) and bad times (eg. sell valuable fittings). Though sometimes depending on the quality of the blade the pitch will last longer depending on how much filler they put in and the grade of pitch (as you can imagine the richer guys got the more solid pitch while the poorer guys got the cheap). I noticed with more WWII era blades that sometimes they get lazy with the pitch (perhaps in a rush to supply warriors corners were possinly cut), and also seems sometimes to be more shock with them coming over from hot humid climates to dry cold climates. The one in the picture I attached is over 100 years old and still solid as a rock. Anyways where as here it may difficult for us to repair broken swords, over there eventually having you bolo replaced was a fact of life. The way my dad put it, whenever they used up a bolo beyond its life theyd just go back to the panday and get it "recycled" into a new one, or if they particularly had money theyd spring for an upgrade. Though he did express that at least 50 years ago a big factor in choosing a good bolo was finding one that had a good handle. All in all it gets complicated though once you start throwing in the pusaka factor (heirloom). Hmm Im digressing.:rolleyes:
 
Oh one comment about Kris Cutlery. The glue theyre using seems to be modern epoxy rather than traditional pitch. Hence less worry of a dryout failure.
 
Originally posted by Federico
Spence, sounds like the pitch dried out. Was it particularly crumbly after you took it out? Any temp or humidity changes at the time?

Hmm Im digressing.
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Fed:

It was quite some time back with the barong. IIRC, the pitch pretty much came out as a block. However, I was able to crumble most of it away from the tang with my fingers after I separated the blade from the handle.

That's the kind of digression I like. Always include the family recollections/first-hand stories in your posts. Its one of the reasons I enjoy this forum so much.

S.
 
These posts really hurt when there's money in your pocket - earmarked to pay off the credit card.
 
Very pretty, N2S. What are they? Are the wilder looking ones (including the one with the pierced blade) traditional?

S.
 
Originally posted by Yvsa

...I know there's been a lot of speculation as to what the Carbon-V actually is, but whatever it is I believe it to be an excellent knife steel.
;)
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I wholeheartedly agree with you on that. Carbon V is really quite good. Carbon V has been extensively tested and if they're anything to go by, they (spark testing and rust characteristics) point the finger at 0170-6 or 50100-B (they're the same thing). It's a good Chrome-Vanadium steel, similar to O-1, but much less expensive. It's basically 52100 with around 1/3 the amount of chromium. Vanadium has been added, so that'd explain it's great performance...
 
Originally posted by Manoucher Moshtagh


...I say it as a collector of antiques, however, if you buy them remember that they do not have the blade strength of a HI Kuk. So do not use them for wood chopping. Sundang (moro kris) is a war blade and now a martial arts blade and barong can be used for bush cutting as not2sharp rightly mentioned above but at the same time as an excellent slicer.
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Well, regardless, I intend to test out the Barong Vs a my beloved worker, Tsume No-Mouko, my 20" Chiruwa Sirupati...

[/B][/QUOTE]

Remember that KC has not updated íts site for a long time. You can ask for a mail catalog. Nowadays they have a different line of products.

[/B][/QUOTE]

Yeah, well, you probably heard alot about the anti-KC forumites on SFI? Well, I'm one of 'em. KC have (in my *VERY STRONG* opinion), a *VERY BAD* track record...
 
If youre looking for antique/ethnographic pieces try http://www.fredericksantiqueswords.com./ the website is long out of date so you will have to order a catalog to find what the curent listings are. In the next month or so Eriks Edge will be updating its website so you can check him out to. Erik Farrow is a great guy to deal with. Ive actually gotten most of my stuff from him, 5 kris and a barong. However he's slow in updating his site, and often has much more stuff laying around than whats listed. As for KC as the saying goes you get what you pay for. HI is an anachronism, there arent too many companies out there that are like HI where you get 10x more than what you pay for. Anyways if you handle real sandata then you will know that they are comparable, I do not consider KC to be a true representation of Filipino Sandata (weapons). Though for a better comparison with HI Id compare more a bolo rather than a barong. As for the best Filipino cutter, that would have to be a kampilan. Not too many blades out there can cut horses in half, as the Spaniards found out. Though Im not too fond of two handed swords. I still prefer kris over barong for cutting. Though I still prefer barong for looks. Anyways alot of the comparrison comes from how youre cutting as well. Barongs are slicing swords, whereas khuks are more chopping tools. If you can do good slices, and youre barong is well made, then you should be able to out cut a khuk on flesh (key is though flesh). However I dont think itll be by that much. Ive done comparissons with different kris, barong, a katana, a dha, tulwar, bolo, kampilan and khuk on cutting. So I have a little idea of what each can do. Anyways cutting ability is over-rated. Doesnt matter how great your sword can cut, if in combat you cannot wield it well. Just because your sword can cut a man in two, doesnt mean that your enemy is gonna let you.

Spence: sounds like a classic dry-out in your barong. Sometimes you can spot it before hand, other times it happens like what happened to you. Though a good inspection should tell you which one will hold up better in the first place. Cant rely describe though how you would do an inspection. Just something you gotta pick up.
 
Cool topic!! :D

Both Barong and Khukuri are my favorite short blades. I have used the early KC Barongs in my MA practices and have cut a variety of targets (tatami rolls, bammboo in Japan, meat with ribs) and they have performed quite well. The newer KC combat Barong has been used alot in my cutting tests, as well as the Shandigan Barong. For the money they are well worth it.

As far as the H.I. Khukuris, they rock! You can use them as a weapon and tool. I have found that the Sirupati fits quite well in my FMA practices. Light, fast, cuts with ease, and very fast. The curved blade is also a plus, cause it tends to throw off people's blocks / parrys.

Buy them all if you can't decide and try it out.
 
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