final sharpening

T

T. J.

Joined
Jul 27, 1999
Messages
228
OK, survey question. How do you guys put the final edge on your knives? Lansky style sharpening system? Anybody using a micron belt on your big grinder? Wet stone system? I'm thinking of making a pivoting jig that will allow me to clamp the blade, and swing it back and forth against the contact wheel on my belt sander to hollow grind the final edge. Vertical adjustment would allow me to change the bevel width and a 9 mk belt should give a fine polished edge prior to stropping. heat buildup may be a problem though. Thoughts??
James
 
For a god shapening job,
you have to decide what you wanna cut first.
Shall it be more like hacking and rough cutting blade or do like a razor, really fine cut?
So the first step is in the exact defenition of the job.
The grinding done by a beltgrinder will lead to a weak edge unless it is not a slow running watercooled stone or system you use at a already hardend blade. The heatjam you build up in the edge, will soften the steel just where you don't want it. This happens also to high alloy and high speed steel. A scientific report on this is available.
for outstanding performance I use japanese waterstones up to 8000 grid.
Next the buffing. It is just the same with it but the worse thing on it is that, you rounden the edge in an enormus amount by loosing a lot of material, you really don't need to.
I use a razor stropper to get the kick out of it and it takes just as much material as needed (the wear i talk about are microns only).
This, if its all done the right way and you had choosen the right material for your blade concerning the porpose you will let you succeed.
Roman

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[This message has been edited by Roman Landes (edited 04 September 1999).]
 
Give me a belt sander and a paper stropping wheel any day. I lack the patience to play with those hand systems.

I use a worn 180 or 240 belt to grind the micro bevel, and green buffing compound on the hard paper wheel to strop the edge smooth.
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george
www.tichbourneknives.com
sales@tichbourneknives.com



[This message has been edited by george tichbourne (edited 04 September 1999).]
 
Same principal and feelings about hand stones as George! I use a different belt and either leather strop or a buffing wheel for the final edge. I have access to a microscope that I can get a good look at what my cutting edges look like. I have looked at new ones, ones dulled by everyday use, ones dulled intentionally by cutting cardboard and new factory knife edges. I use a spray mister on my belt while I sharpen and I am convinced that I am not overheating the micro-edge!
 
Dr Lathe,
it is good to have a microscope but what did you look at. to see what the structure looks like needs metallographic preperation. did you do that and what did you look at? by what condition, reagents, manifications.
next is, that if you did someting like that it is not possible to detect hardness by that. this means that you need to make an microhardness testing by vickers, to show the hardnessfuntion in dependence of the material depth.
I am sorry, but in terms of material science what you are "convinced of" about what you do does not count, but facts do.
excuse me saying this, to have a good feeling about what you do is definitely all right, but that does not mean that a scientific fact isn't worth any money anymore.
unfortunately this is all in german but it would proof what I said.

Stüdemann H., / Volkert-Lange H. / Lauterjung E.,
1974
NR. 2409, ( F-Bericht, Land-NRW )
Auswirkungen des Schleifens bei der Feinstbearbeitung von rostfreiem Stahl
(Influence of finegrinding upon stainless steel )
Stüdemann H., / Lauterjung E., / Grube R.,
1980
NR. 2923 , ( F-Bericht , Land-NRW )
Das Schleifen von rostbeständigem Stahl mit magnesitgebundenen
Schleifssteinen und die Beeinflussung der Werkstoffeigenschaften durch die Schleifwärme
( Grinding of stainless steel for knives with magnesitbound grindingstones and the influence of the generated heat upon the qualities of the material )


------------------
If you can't change your world...change yourself...If you can change yourself, you can change your world
 
Roman,
What I have been looking at under the microscope is HOW the edges wear. I have found the the blades I "power sharpen" last as long, if not longer than the ones I have done off my diamond bench stones. It's easier for me to control the angle of the cutting edge with this process also.I have not tried waterstones, this is something that I have been thinking about, more for finishing blades than sharpening. I will have to give them a shot!
I am in total agreement with you about scientific facts!!! Is there an inexpensive way to do the testing that you described?
Is there something I could add to my cutting tests and microscope viewing? I would never turn down an idea that would improve the quality of the knives I produce!!! Every so often I get a response off this Forum that I save and print for future consideration! I just did that with your last posting! Thanks for your input!
 
Unfortunately,
I dont see a simple or inexpensive way to do the testing as discribed. Actually I was asking that myself too, when I was staring to do my graduation work in this field.
regarding the other questions what you can add to your tests:
1.What do you want to figure out(this is not a joke nor it is trivial!!!)
2.Add undouptable conditions to your tests and be as accurat as needed (what grade of scientific accuracy do you think is e.g.cutting rope, shaving hair off an arm and that all done by hand?)
3 make a model of a sharp and a dull razorblade and think what happens when you use your ways of making blades, ht and sharpen it.
To improof quality you first have to know what level of quality you are and what do you want to let loose to get to a different point of view witch gives you the chance for improofment.
For your sharpening I want to give you a challange (I hope you dont get me wrong). you just havent been able to reach the degree of sharpening and testing to detec the difference.
Here several hinds you can use and spread
Hope you got inspired
Roman
LISTE
der
UNTERSUCHUNGSBERICHTE FÜR SCHNEIDWAREN ( MESSER )
( Scientific Reports on Cuttlery „Knives“)
Published by Roman Landes, Ingolstadt Germany, 1997


1 Honda K., / Takahashi K.,
1927
Journal of the Steel and Iron-Institute 116 ; S.357


2 Knapp, W.,
1928
Dr.-Ing.- Dissertation, T.H. Aachen
Über Schneidfähigkeit und Schneidhaltigkeit von Messerklingen
( About the cutttingability and edgeholdingability of knifeblades )


3 Hendrichs,F.,
1928
Über ein Verfahren zur Prüfung der Schneidfähigkeit von Messern.
( A Methode to test the cuttingability of knifeblades )
Maschinenbau 7, S.1012


4 Kolberg, C.,
1933
Dr.-Ing.- Diss., T.H. Aachen
Beitrag zur Prüfung der Schneideigenschaften von Messerklingen aus
Kohlenstoffstahl und rostfreiem Stahl
( An analysis to test the cuttingqualities of carbon- and stainlesssteel blades )


5 Heike, R.,
1935
Diss. 3194, T.H.Berlin
Untersuchungen des Schneidvorganges beim maschinellen Schneiden von
Speck zu Würfeln
( Analysis of the cutttingprocess by cutting ham into cubes )


6 Klemm, H.,
1957
Akademie-Verlag, Berlin, Freiberger Forschungshefte B 12
Die Vorgänge beim Schneiden mit Messern
(The procedures that happen by cutting with knives )


7 Borchert, P.,
1949
Diplomarbeit am Institut für Werkzeugmaschinen, T.H. Braunschweig
Die Schärfe von Messern
( The sharpness of knives )


8 Kurek F.,/ Klein W.,
1951
Schneidwaren ( Cuttlery )
Droste Verlag, Düsseldorf


9 Stoppel, Th.,
1955
VDI-Zeitschrift, Bd. 97, NR.24, S.829 / 830
Ein Beitrag zur Erforschung des Schneidvorganges
( Analysis to investigate the cuttingprocess )


10 Pfaender,H. G.,
1957
Dr.-Ing.-Diss. ,T.H. Stuttgart
Das Tischmesser ( The tableknife ) , S.61


11 Stüdemann, H.,
1954
NR. 65, ( F-Bericht , Land-NRW )
Fachverband Schneidwarenindustrie Solingen
Polieren von Tafelmesserklingen aus rostfreiem Stahl
( Pollishing of stainlessteel tableknife blades )


12 Stüdemann H., / Müchler W.,
1956
NR.177, ( F-Bericht , Land-NRW )
Entwicklung eines Verfahrens zur zahlenmäßigen Bestimmung der
Schneideigenschaften von Messerklingen
( Developement of a methode to determine the cuttingqualities of knifeblades)


13 Stüdemann H., / Beu R.,
1956
NR. 224, ( F-Bericht, Land-NRW )
Verfahren zur Prüfung der Korrosionsbeständigkeit von Messerklingen aus
rostfreiem Stahl
( A methode to test the corrosionresistance of stainless steel knives )


14 Müchler, W.,
1956
NR. 277, ( F-Bericht , Land-NRW )
Untersuchung und zahlenmäßige Bestimmung der Schneideigenschaften
von Messern mit besoderer Berücksichtigung rostfreier Messerstähle
( A methode to investigate the cuttingqualities of stainless steel knives )


15 Stüdemann H., / Esselborn F., / Hartmann H.,
1957
NR. 741, ( F-Bericht, Land-NRW )
Untersuchungen zur Prüfung der Korrosionsbeständigkeit rostbeständiger
Blechbestecke aus Cr-Stahl
(A methode to analyse the corrosionresistance of chromiumsteel tablecuttlery )


16 Stüdemann H., / Both R.,
1960
NR. 876, ( F-Bericht, Land-NRW )
Untersuchungen über den Einfluß der Oberflächenbearbeitung auf das
Korrosionsverhalten rostbeständiger Messerstähle
( Analysis about the inflence of different mechanical surfacetreatements upon the corrosionbehavior of stainless cuttlery-steel )


17 Stüdemann H., / Esselborn F.,
1962
NR. 1140, (F-Bericht, Land-NRW )
Einflüsse der Prüfbedingungen auf die Ergebnisse von
Schneideigenschaftsprüfungen an Messern
( Influence of the testconditions upon the results of cuttingqualitytests of knives )

18 Stüdemann H., / Esselborn F.,
1962
NR. 1089, ( F-Bericht, Land-NRW )
Untersuchungen über den Einfluß der Zusammensetzung und der
Gefügeausbildung auf das Härteverhalten des Stahles X40 Cr13
( Analysis of the inflence of the alloyconfiguration and the steelstructure upon the hardeningbehavior of the steel X 40 Cr 13 )


19 Stüdemann H., / Esselborn F.,
1964
NR. 1352, (F-Bericht, Land-NRW )
Die Ergebnisse von Schneideigenschaftsprüfungen an Messern unter der
Berücksichtigung des Einflusses der geometrischen Form des Messers und
des Einflusses der Karbidverteilung und -größe im Werkstoff
( The results of cuttingqualitiytests for knives by special emphasis upon the geometrical shape, and also the influence of the carbiddistribution and size in the material )


20 Stüdemann H., / Esselborn F.,
1964
NR. 1353, (F-Bericht, Land-NRW )
Untersuchung über den Einfluß unterschiedlicher Herstellungsverfahren auf
die Qualität rostbeständiger Messer
( Analysis of the influence of differnt productionprocesses upon the quality of stainless steel knives )


21 Stüdemann H., / Esselborn F.,
1964
NR. 1354, ( F-Bericht, Land-NRW )
Untersuchungen über der Einfluß der Wärmebehandlung in Zusammenhang
mit unterschiedlicher Herstellung auf die Eigenschaften von rostbeständigen
Messern
(Analysis of the influence of the heattreament in correlation with different productionprocesses upon the quality of stainless steel knives )


22 Stüdemann H., / Both R., / Lauterjung E.,
1965
NR. 1504, ( F-Bericht, Land NRW )
Entwicklung eines Prüfgerätes zur Messung des Schneidverhaltens feiner
Messerschneiden, unter besonderer Berücksichtigung der Rasierklingen
( Developement of a device to check the cuttingbehavior of fine knifeedges like razorblades )


23 Stüdemann H., / Burndiek H., / Grube R.,
1965
NR. 1579, ( F-Bericht, Land-NRW )
Untersuchungen über den Einfluß der Zusammensetzung und der
Gefügeausbildung auf das Anlassverhalten des Stahles X40 Cr13
(Analysis about the influence of the alloyconfiguration and the Struckture upon the temperingbehavior of the steel X40 Cr 13 )


24 Stüdemann H., / Burndiek H.,
1967
NR. 1798, ( F-Bericht, Land-NRW )
Vergleich von Härten, Anlassen, Warmbadhärten und Unterkhlen in ihrem
Einfluß auf die technologischen Eigenschaften des Stahles X40 Cr13
( Comparision of hardening, tempering, salt-bath heattreating and supercooling and their influence upon the technological qualities of the steel X40 Cr 13 )

25 Stüdemann H., / Volkert-Lange H., / Grube R.,
1969
NR. 2057, ( F-Bericht, Land-NRW )
Korrosionsverhalten rostbeständiger Stähle unter Einwirkung von
Spülmittellösung
( Corrosionbehavior of stainless steels by using soapsollution )


26 Stüdemann / Volkert-Lange / Grube
1970
NR. 2117, ( F-Bericht, Land-NRW )
Einfluß der Wärmebehandlung auf das Biegeverhalten des Stahles X40 Cr13
( Influence of the heattreatement onto the bendingbehavior of the steel X40 Cr 13 )


27 Stüdemann H., / Volkert-Lange H.,
1970
NR. 2165, ( F-Bericht, Land-NRW )
Elastisches Verhalten und Dauerfestigkeit des Stahles X40 Cr13
(Elastic behavior and durability strength of X40 Cr 13 )


28 Stüdemann H., / Volkert-Lange H., / Grube R.,
1972
NR. 2272, ( F-Bericht, Land-NRW )
Entwicklung einer Vorrichtung zur Prüfung der Schneideigenschaften von
Scheren
( Development of a testingdevice to determine the cuttingqualities of scissors )


29 Stüdemann H., / Volkert-Lange H. / Lauterjung E.,
1974
NR. 2409, ( F-Bericht, Land-NRW )
Auswirkungen des Schleifens bei der Feinstbearbeitung von rostfreiem Stahl
(Influence of finegrinding upon stainless steel )


30 Stüdemann H., / Volkert-Lange H., / Lauterjung E.,
1974
NR. 2461, ( F-Bericht, Land-NRW )
Einfluß der Wärmebehandlung auf die Härte, Schneidverhalten und
Korrosionsbeständigkeit von rostbeständigen Cr-Stählen mit verschiedenen
Cr- und C- Gehalten
( Influence of heatttreatement upon hardness, cuttingbehavior and corrosionresistance of chromium steels with different chromium- and carboncontents )


31 Stüdemann H., / Grube R.,
1976
NR. 2551, ( F-Bericht , Land-NRW )
Bestimmung der Schneideigenschaften von Scheren und Festlegung von
Gütemerkmalen. Einfluß des Aufbaues, des Werkstoffes und der Verarbeitung
von Scheren
(Determination of the cuttinqualities of scissors and the influence of the steelstructure and the processing of scissors )


32 Stüdemann H., / Lauterjung E., / Grube R.,
1978
NR. 2800 , ( F-Bericht , Land-NRW )
Die Gebrauchseigenschaften des Stahles C 45 CrMoV 15 bei der
Verwendung als Messerstahl und sein Verhalten bei der Warmformgebung
( The usingqualities of the steel C 45 CrMoV 15 for knifeblades and its forgingbehavior )

33 Stüdemann H., / Lauterjung E., / Grube R.,
1980
NR. 2923 , ( F-Bericht , Land-NRW )
Das Schleifen von rostbeständigem Stahl mit magnesitgebundenen
Schleifssteinen und die Beeinflussung der Werkstoffeigenschaften durch die Schleifwärme
( Grinding of stainless steel for knives with magnesitbound grindingstones and the influence of the generated heat upon the qualities of the material )


34 Esselborn F.,
1962
Dr.-Ing.- Diss., TH-Aachen
Untersuchungen über den Einflußder Formgebung und der
Wärmebehandlung auf die Eigenschaften von Messerklingen aus
rostbeständigem Stahl
( Influence of the formingprocess and heattreating upon the qualities of stainless steel knifeblades )


35 Stüdemann H.,
1987
Dr.-Ing.-Diss., TH-Aachen
Untersuchungen verschiedener rostbeständiger Messerstähle sowie
Unterschiede in wesentlichen Gebrauchseigenschaften bei Stählen der
gleichen Stoffnummer
( Analysis of different stainless balde steels and their different usingqualities within the thame steelcharge )


36 Landes R.
1998
Diplomarbeit, Fachhochschule München
Schneidkantenstabilität von Messerschneiden
(Cuttingedge stability of knife edges)

37 Landes R.
1998
Forschungsarbeit, Fachhochschule München
Schneidkantenstabilität des Werkstoffes X110 CrMoV 15 in Abhängigkeit von der Gefügeeinstellung (Cuttingedge stablility of the alloy X110 CrMoV 15 in dependence of the structure parameters)

Little Dictionary (English-Deutsch)


cutting-ability ( CA ) >Schneidfähigkeit ( SF )
-performance >Schneidleistung
-behavior >Scneidverhalten
-qualities >Schneideigenschaften
-process >Schneidvorgang

edgeholdingability ( EHA ) >Schneidhaltigkeit ( SH )

analysis >Untersuchung

sharpness >Schärfe

Usingqualities >Gebrauchseigenschaften

Cuttingedgestability ( CES ) > Schneidkantenstabilität ( SKS )

Macrostability ( MAS ) > Makrostabilität ( MAS )

Microsability ( MIS ) >Mikrostabilität ( MIS )


Definitions


Cuttingability ( CA ): ( In former times falsely called sharpness ). It is the ability of an edge to separate any body that is softer than the bladesteel. It is determined by the „outer factors“ of a cuttingtool ( pressure, geometrical shape, edgeangle, coarsness of the edge „serration’s“, fineness of the edge „sharpness“).

Important!!! there are two different cuttingabilities possible

1. ca by pressurecutting ( main cuttingquality )
2. ca by translatoric cutting (secondary cuttingquality )

Edgeholdingability ( EHA ): It is the resistance of the cuttingedge of a tool, against mechanical, thermical and chemical wear.
It can be measured to give you the degree of the decreasing cuttingability in use.
It is determined by the „inner factors“ ( chemical composition, structure, thermical treatment )

Cuttingqualities are: Edgholdingability ( EHA ) and Cuttingability ( CA )

Cuttingbehavior: It is the general behavior of a cuttingtool in use. This behavior is determined by the cuttingqualities.

Cuttingprocess: The physical, chemical and thermical process to separate a body.

Cuttingperformance: It is the amount of bodyunits that are being cut, by constant outer factors by one cut.

Cuttingedgestability ( CES ):It is the resistance of a cuttingedge of a tool, against mechanical (elastic or plastic) deformation. It is divided in macrostability and microstability

Macrostability ( MAS ):The MAS detects the quality and ability of materials, heattreatments and geometry in application for knives.

Microstability ( MIS ):The MIS detects if a material has the abilities to be used for fine cuttingedges.(e.g. razorblades


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If you can't change your world...change yourself...If you can change yourself, you can change your world
 
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