Finally Breaking 100 BESS—Thoughts & Feedback Welcome

J

jim310r

Joined
Dec 30, 2024
Messages
1
Hi Everyone,

My name is Jim, and I’m recently retired. Over the past year, I’ve been deeply immersed in collecting and sharpening knives, and I’d love to hear any feedback or insights you might have. I thought I’d share my sharpening setup and some of the key things I’ve learned so far.

Sharpening Equipment

  • I use a Tormek T-8 system with the following wheels:
  • Diamond wheels – DC, DF, and DE
  • Conventional wheels – SB, SG, and SJ
  • Felt honing wheels – Two 250mm Sliipakniven rock-hard felt wheels, one with 1µm diamond spray and the other with 6µm
  • Leather honing wheel – 250mm with 0.025µm diamond + Cr203 paste
Precision Tools

  • Slipakniven Front Vertical Base (FVB) Knife jig set & software Three different size Universal Support Bars (USBs)
  • Digital calipers – 8” for USB/FVB measurements, 12” for wheel diameters
  • Slipakniven Laser Goniometer
  • Edge-On-Up Professional Edge Tester
This is my collection so far (practice knives) I have had some great initial results with my new hard rock felt wheels, BESS scores between 100 and 135 with a couple of legitimate sub 100 scores. Currently, with the exception of the Dexter and the Shun, all have 12 dps bevels so my plan is to resharpen each one @ 12 again with diamond wheels and hone with two passes on the rock hard felt wheel with 1um diamond spray at plus .08 degrees and one one pass on the leather wheel with .025um diamond + Cr203 at the exact angle and compare the BESS scores from my previous results. I'll post the latest BESS scores this week.


BenchmadeMini Crooked RiverS90V
BenchmadeOsborne BCMagnacut
CiviviMini PraxisDamascus
CiviviPraxisDamascus
DexterFiletSG133-7
Kershaw1776GRYDAMDamascus
KershawLaunch 14 7850CPM154
KershawLeek 166014C28N
KershawLeek 1660CUCPM154
ShunClassic 8" Chef's KnifeVG-MAX
SpydercoManix 2 (Pinned Light)S110V
Zero Tolerence0562TICPM 20CV
Zero Tolerence0770CFS35VN

What I’ve Learned

I’ve been soaking up as much knowledge as possible—reading, watching videos, and recently working through Dr. Vadim Kralchuk’s book, "Knife Deburring: Science Behind the Lasting Razor Edge." After incorporating what I’ve learned and using the Slipakniven 250mm felt wheel, I feel like I’m finally achieving respectable BESS scores.

I’d love to hear thoughts from other sharpeners and what their favorite knives are! Any tips or techniques that have helped you refine your edge performance?
 
Crag the Brewer said:
This one is going Up North, later in the year.
I'm a little nervous with making it. I'll need to probably cancel all plans for the week, get a case of Beer, and about 50 belts..... Ha. :(
Click to expand...
Be sure to see that it passes the frozen ham challenge prior to shipment. 😉
 
jim310r said:
Dr. Vadim Kralchuk’s book, "Knife Deburring: Science
Click to expand...
Yep I got that as soon as I read the " Rock Hard Felt " and the "plus .08 degrees"

I don't have a danged single useful thing to add here but I will yammer on in my old codger way ( hey , a guy has to go with what he is good at ) . . .
First off I am the first to bang the table and swear up and down that one can get an edge just as sharp on ANY steel if one knows how to sharpen well.
I also used to say about my Dad that he would take either side just because he liked to argue . . . .

So . . . here I will take the other side and say you should add to your blade alloys :
M4
ZDP-189

If I were trying to split hairs with my sharpening , as it were, that is what I would operate with for record attempts .
I have no Bess Tester though I have flirted with the idea.

I can tell when I have a """""world class"""""" edge by the way the edge sinks into the flat of my thumb nail in a sickening spine tingling sort of way when I test the edge on my thumb nail .
I often say I can make a 56 degree inclusive edge whittle several curls off a hair while it is still in my arm
but
actual cutting performance ; cutting through a hair , or a plastic wire tie , with as low a resistance as possible is quite another deal .
That thumb nail edge sinking test takes into account edge geometry as well as thinness of the apex. Once a person has a decade or so experience with it.

I would even go so far as to say once you get done with all the Rock Hard Felt polished etc.off the power buffer . . . there could be wilder skies than these on an Edge Pro with one or two short passes per side with hard leather or balsa . . . maybe a breathy whisper of .25 micron or .5 micron diamond emulsion on the leather or balsa . I saw you have a leather wheel but you don't need feet per minute once you got your behind the edge "bur" taken care of for edge longevity . . . now we are talking right on the apex .

No I think I will skip the Bess and just go with my trusty thumb nail but it would be interesting to go once on a Bess just for the thrill of seeing how the other half lives.
EDIT ONLY TO FIX SPELLING ETC.
 
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Wowbagger said:
but I will yammer on in my old codger way ( hey , a guy has to go with what he is good at ) . . .
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Is there a middle aged membership available??? :D

Jokes aside, I had skimmed over the felt wheel polishing. That might be part of the issue right there. You would have to have a really light hand. I used to strop on my Tormek's leather wheel with some compound. It works but it also is very easy to eat off that bit of razor edge leaving it just nicely sharp instead of crazy sharp.
 
My BESS tester has taught me more than anything else about sharpening. I know it isn't everything but I like to quantify sharpness with a number so I can make a change to my technique and see what that does to my sharpness number. It has taught me that many of the tricks I used to make a knife sharper made it duller. Raise the angle .05 degrees for the last stone to make sure I am cleaning up the apex, WRONG! Double or triple the strokes needed, WRONG! Back up a grit because I think I should have done more strokes with it, WRONG! I would never have figured out these things were bad without the BESS tester. Right after the BESS is a really good microscope. Both have been very, very humbling.

To the op, using a motorized sharpener changes your technique considerably compared to manual sharpening, either freehand or guided, so be careful what advice you take. The change in speed makes a big difference, I think the biggest may be that coarser abrasives leave a finer finish. Perhaps my biggest suggestion would be don't bother with anything finer than 1 micron. My microscope tells me anything finer generally causes more problems than benefits, even when going to great extremes to avoid contamination, including not using leather as it is too contaminated to begin with. Same applies to felt as how do you clean it?

I really question raising your angle for the leather or felt wheels. They are soft enough that you will convex your apex anyway.
 
Diemaker said:
My BESS tester has taught me more than anything else about sharpening. I know it isn't everything but I like to quantify sharpness with a number so I can make a change to my technique and see what that does to my sharpness number. It has taught me that many of the tricks I used to make a knife sharper made it duller. Raise the angle .05 degrees for the last stone to make sure I am cleaning up the apex, WRONG! Double or triple the strokes needed, WRONG! Back up a grit because I think I should have done more strokes with it, WRONG! I would never have figured out these things were bad without the BESS tester. Right after the BESS is a really good microscope. Both have been very, very humbling.

To the op, using a motorized sharpener changes your technique considerably compared to manual sharpening, either freehand or guided, so be careful what advice you take. The change in speed makes a big difference, I think the biggest may be that coarser abrasives leave a finer finish. Perhaps my biggest suggestion would be don't bother with anything finer than 1 micron. My microscope tells me anything finer generally causes more problems than benefits, even when going to great extremes to avoid contamination, including not using leather as it is too contaminated to begin with. Same applies to felt as how do you clean it?

I really question raising your angle for the leather or felt wheels. They are soft enough that you will convex your apex anyway.
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I agree 1000% on how much the BESS tester shortened my learning curve on what works. No more do I have to try to push cut a cigarette paper or split hairs to try to guess if this is sharper than that. As Diemaker mentioned, the first thing that happens is you will become more efficient at honing and stropping. It made results more consistent and faster. You can measure if one honing paste is more effective on a particular steel than another. Furthermore, as opposed to just saying your knife is razor sharp, you will be able to document and repeat your results.
Recently I discovered I am able to get a Wusthof to 55 on the BESS, and then duplicate it. Not only is the BESS a great learning tool, it’s fun. (A light touch on the honing wheel is key, along with progressively smaller particles in your abrasives).
OK, putting the soapbox away…
 
Diemaker said:
raising your angle for the leather or felt wheels. They are soft enough that you will convex your apex anyway.
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I agree .
I think some of our banter wasn't exactly accurate.
Have you read the Dr. Vadim Kralchuk’s booklet?
Some alloys he keeps it the same angle some he changes the angle. I think some of the confusion is the wheel is round not flat.
Often he is aiming to remove a kind of pre bur (I forget the exact term / too lazy to look it up I can envision exactly what he means though) some alloys form a microscopic mound with the same metal burnishing / movement that causes cantancorous burs but the mound is behind the edge not on the edge.

I have almost zero need for power wheels and find that very little motion on a stone is enough to effect a change at the apex .
But anyway .

Also The Science of Sharp has critical (positive) info on stropping and he is all about denim and hard smooth leather and has the micrographs to back it up.
Both have helped me , especially for the crazy stainless steels.
Mostly with tools steels , as I said , prefer not to strop or one or two strokes per side at the same angle or even less angle.
 
Wowbagger said:
exact terms . . . I looked it up
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quoted from the book :

POSITIVE AND NEGATIVE BURRS Selection of the deburring method significantly depends on the burr malleability. The burr malleability, in its turn, depends on the properties of the steel and, to a lesser degree, on the abrasive, and these predetermine whether the burr will be forming by positive or negative mechanism. Positive burrs are produced in tough ductile steels, while negative in hard and brittle. Positive burrs form by shifting the deformed steel to the side of the apex, while the negative burrs form by shearing the deformed steel. Positive burrs are a plus-metal on the edge apex, malleable and difficult to break off, while negative burrs are brittle and break rather than bend. The positive burr root is deburred by honing at a higher than the edge angle, while negative burr root by honing at the edge angle. I oversimplify purposely . . . .
 
Diemaker said:
My BESS tester has taught me more than anything else about sharpening. I know it isn't everything but I like to quantify sharpness with a number so I can make a change to my technique and see what that does to my sharpness number. It has taught me that many of the tricks I used to make a knife sharper made it duller. Raise the angle .05 degrees for the last stone to make sure I am cleaning up the apex, WRONG! Double or triple the strokes needed, WRONG! Back up a grit because I think I should have done more strokes with it, WRONG! I would never have figured out these things were bad without the BESS tester. Right after the BESS is a really good microscope. Both have been very, very humbling.
Click to expand...
I don't have a BESS Tester and I guess I haven't learned those lessons. Would you conjecture the reasons for these things?

My own experience is that it is easier to get a mini-bevel of say 1/4mm sharp than it is a true micro-bevel. My presumption is that the small flat distributes force reducing pressure at the apex beyond what is possible otherwise. I think there is more than 0.05 degrees of play in the Edge Pro Professional pivot blocks however so I cannot be as precise as your jig allows. How much of a difference does this make, and can it be mitigated? My very sharpest edges always seem to come from stropping; perhaps this is because I cannot produce the degree of precision you do.

What do you believe happens with "double or triple the strokes needed" and similarly backing up a grit? Can you relate it to any of the observations from scienceofsharp.com ?
 
Wowbagger said:
I agree .
I think some of our banter wasn't exactly accurate.
Have you read the Dr. Vadim Kralchuk’s booklet?
Some alloys he keeps it the same angle some he changes the angle. I think some of the confusion is the wheel is round not flat.
Often he is aiming to remove a kind of pre bur (I forget the exact term / too lazy to look it up I can envision exactly what he means though) some alloys form a microscopic mound with the same metal burnishing / movement that causes cantancorous burs but the mound is behind the edge not on the edge.

I have almost zero need for power wheels and find that very little motion on a stone is enough to effect a change at the apex .
But anyway .

Also The Science of Sharp has critical (positive) info on stropping and he is all about denim and hard smooth leather and has the micrographs to back it up.
Both have helped me , especially for the crazy stainless steels.
Mostly with tools steels , as I said , prefer not to strop or one or two strokes per side at the same angle or even less angle.
Click to expand...
No I haven't read his book, or really any books on knife sharpening. But I have studied sharpening and made and used many cutting tools over the last 35 years. While the included angles are more obtuse than knives the similarities to peripheral sharpening of end mill flutes is quite similar with the same compromises regarding the apex. I am aware of a lot of the techniques and theories regarding sharpening but focus on what I see happening when I sharpen something. This is where the microscope becomes so valuable as it vastly improves what I can see as well as remember since I can take photos with it. The BESS tester allows me to measure how keen the apex is, which the visual microscope is not good at. There is of course the other tools we all use to test sharpness and edge integrity.

It is very interesting how increasing the speed the stone passes over the knife changes the dynamic of compromises we deal with when sharpening. I feel it has some major advantages vs manual sharpening, but also some common problems are much worse. I find a change of .05 degrees can have a major impact to the apex, with most of those impacts being negative, like 30-50+ BESS negative.

I have read all of Todd's posts about sharpening on his blog and some of what he has posted here that refutes what he has on his blog. What works with one steel and abrasive does not necessarily work with all. My experiences don't typically agree with Todd's blog posts. They agree far more with a photo he shared in a post here about what a toothy edge looks like. Instead of a saw tooth edge where the scratches from the coarse stone meet a keen apex, it is far more likely the apex is missing having been ripped off leaving a blunt face. Of course sooooooooooo much depends on the steel, heat treat, and how sharp/aggressive the abrasives used are.

In my experience the softer surfaces used for stropping have a negative affect on the apex when used with diamonds. With veg tanned leather loaded with 1 micron diamond any more than 2 or 3 strokes, with no pressure, will start to do more harm than good to the apex, keeping in mind this is on steels that don't respond too well to softer abrasives. After 20 strokes with the same strop the bevel shortens by .01" to .02", changing the angle at the apex considerably. This is why I prefer a stiffer strop. At the moment, I think the stiffer your stropping surface is the better, as long as it still works to strop with. About 18 months ago I spent nearly a month doing a deep dive on what makes the best strop and have spent another month or two since then furthering my education and developing more products. I think the only difference between sharpening and stropping is going from fixed abrasives to loose. I have used 80 micron diamonds on my strops, at this point do we still call it stropping or sharpening? The reason I am playing with such coarse abrasives is for sharpening recurve knives. There are compromises to everything, and I think using a curved strop to sharpen recurves has many advantages that overcome the disadvantages.

Time to stop, I am just finishing a week of testing stones, strops, and different emulsions so my head is full of this stuff, sorry if I have said too much. But at least it is directly related to improving BESS scores so is responding to the thread topic. Cody recently said I can sell guided sharpening stuff I come up with that they don't feel is ready or they don't agree with. So I will be adding some guided sharpening items to my website soon, curved strops, a few stones, emulsions designed specifically for them, and information about them. I have a several hours of video and several hundred photos to edit to make a few videos showing how they work compared to stones or even used to refine as a strop, which should help explain things. EP also now has my polymer strops in the 1"x6" format on their website if you are interested.
 
Mr.Wizard said:
I don't have a BESS Tester and I guess I haven't learned those lessons. Would you conjecture the reasons for these things?

My own experience is that it is easier to get a mini-bevel of say 1/4mm sharp than it is a true micro-bevel. My presumption is that the small flat distributes force reducing pressure at the apex beyond what is possible otherwise. I think there is more than 0.05 degrees of play in the Edge Pro Professional pivot blocks however so I cannot be as precise as your jig allows. How much of a difference does this make, and can it be mitigated? My very sharpest edges always seem to come from stropping; perhaps this is because I cannot produce the degree of precision you do.

What do you believe happens with "double or triple the strokes needed" and similarly backing up a grit? Can you relate it to any of the observations from scienceofsharp.com ?
Click to expand...
I am not sure of the reasons but feel the bond hardness has a lot to do with it.

If you don't use enough pressure on the stone to lift the guide rod in the pivot blocks there shouldn't be much angle change from the play. I think the biggest problem is holding the knife perfectly still while you sharpen. This is where my rubber covered blade table with strong magnets comes into its own. Stropping done right will always improve the keeness of an edge, in my experince. Having a softer surface contacting your apex has a lot to do with this, I think.

When sharpening with a grit my BESS #s will get lower and lower, then raise up 10 to 20 grams and stabilize. I have noticed this with all grits and even when stropping with my firm strops. My strops are firm enough that they don't convex the bevel enough to worry about how much you strop with them, which makes a big difference when testing how many strokes are best and what too many do.

When I raise the angle .05 degrees when using a Matrix stone the BESS score ALWAYS goes up 20-50+ grams, even when adding no pressure to the stone arm, and mine is ultra light being all aluminum.

If I back up a grit the score can go up well over 100 grams and take 60 to 80 passes to come back down to where it should be with that grit. My suggestion to use 3-4 strokes per inch of blade per grit is at the low end of what I find is best. 10 strokes per inch of blade per grit is the high end of what works, or too much. I think the Goldilocks zone is 4-6 strokes. This is with Matrix stones that have been broken in and working well. I have not tested this with other stones, but don't see why it would not be the same. I see the same thing happen when using my strops with 5 to 80 micron diamonds.

I can't think of anything from Todd's blog, or my own ideas, to explain this.
 
Diemaker said:
sorry if I have said too much
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From you I don't think that is possible .
Thank you for your time and effort to share your good, sound findings.


Diemaker said:
In my experience the softer surfaces used for stropping have a negative affect on the apex when used with diamonds. With veg tanned leather loaded with 1 micron diamond any more than 2 or 3 strokes, with no pressure, will start to do more harm than good to the apex, keeping in mind this is on steels that don't respond too well to softer abrasives. After 20 strokes with the same strop the bevel shortens by .01" to .02", changing the angle at the apex considerably. This is why I prefer a stiffer strop.
Click to expand...
EXACTLY !
THANK YOU .
I've been saying that for years / basically that I like to finish an edge off a fine stone rather than strop at all if the steel is amicable.

As far as hard strops I have gone as far as making a big wide strop out of rock maple . I am into high end hand tool wood working so the thing is very flat (checked on my Starrett Pink Granite Laboratory grade surface plate ) and corrected with super sharp and accurate finish plane cuts.

I would sharpen through Norton 8,000 yellow water stone then go to the maple strop all using a Varitas high quality plane blade sharpening jig (these are brilliant) . i found I was super happy with the A2 blade edges coming off the Norton 8,000 and there was no need to go to the maple strop (or any other strop).
again . . . using a 10 power jeweler's visor I could easily cut two or three curls off a single hair very controlably while it was in my arm . Not much the strop could add to that .
IMO
difference between sharpening and stropping is going from fixed abrasives to loose
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I never do it but I seem to remember Cliff Stamp talking about putting slurry or other very fine grit on more coarse stones to , I suppose , turn them into a type of strop (now that you mention it ).

There are those that get all excited about building "slurry" on a stone. I have ALWAYS rinsed it off and only use my Natural Nagura to clean the pores of water stones like the Nortons and the Shapton Pros and Shapton Glass stones .

I just never liked the idea of loose "rocks" , no matter how small , banging into my edges while I am sharpening .
At a gut level I much prefer anchored grit partially sitting above a flattened plane and machining my edge , if you will .

I am even more of a believer after using your 4000 Diamond Matrix stone ! ! !
Why these are no longer available on THE river I don't know . Where are they available ? I'd snag a second one .
 
Diemaker said:
No I haven't read his book, or really any books on knife sharpening.
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You would do yourself a favor by reading the book mentioned, “Knife Deburring”. It’s a short book packed full of tested and practical information. Many electron microscope pics detailing his discussions.
I’m sure you do an amazing job but who doesn’t want to learn more about their passions…
I particularly enjoyed the information on how a burr is formed… what really happens to the steel? It’s pretty amazing.
Al
 
Wowbagger said:
I never do it but I seem to remember Cliff Stamp talking about putting slurry or other very fine grit on more coarse stones to , I suppose , turn them into a type of strop (now that you mention it ).

There are those that get all excited about building "slurry" on a stone.
Why these are no longer available on THE river I don't know . Where are they available ? I'd snag a second one .
Click to expand...
The cutting action of loose abrasives is totally different than fixed and works much better over a larger surface. Keep this in mind and experiment, it will become obvious quickly. With this in mind, the slurry on a stone that helps with those big bevels on Japanese knives comes to mind, but it really increases the wear on the stones.

The company selling on the big river must have stopped since none of the Matrix stones have ever gone out of production or stock. While buying on the big river is easy selling on it sucks, just ask anyone doing it with tighter margins. You can always buy Edge Pro products on their website.
 
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