When I am having issues with refining the apex going with a softer bond will always fix them, always. All the variables do play a part but bond hardness is possibly the biggest variable in my experience. Plated diamonds are the most aggressive cutting tool there is, with the least give, so they tend to do the most damage to the underlying work material. My post was mainly about how the fine plated diamonds still leave a toothy edge, which I think have far more to do with the damage to the apex than scratches making a saw tooth edge.
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Finally Breaking 100 BESS—Thoughts & Feedback Welcome
- Thread starter jim310r
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- Nov 6, 2023
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That's also what I suspect. Even the newer metallic bonded diamond stones seem to leave more toothiness and have have less polishing ability versus something like a resin bond. I noticed pretty early on that it's better to use plates or metallic bonds for faster material removal and bevel setting, and for finishing when toothy edges are more desirable. Resin if you want to go up in polish, after finding the right spot to bridge the progression. I don't understand the appeal of high grit metallic bonded stones or plates and tend to get very noticeably better polishing from resin.
Last edited:
Wowbagger
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I haven't been keeping up with the latest posts in this thread.
I'm happy with my edges .
I did however stumble across this post by Vivi over in Spyder Land that I agree with.
Hope you don't mind me borrowing a tiny portion of your post Vivi :
VivI Posted :
1. People use stupid geometries for their knives, to be blunt.
Cliff Stamp used to advocate for knife users to find their own optimal edge angle. His method was simple. Keep sharpening a given knife or cutting tool thinner and thinner, until the edge starts to fail while being used for the intended purpose of the tool. Sharpen it a degree or two thicker than the failure angle, or utilize a microbevel. I'm not aware of anyone here that does that.
I did do this. I found for my uses I could go below 10 degrees per side without a microbevel on VG10 & S30V & 8Cr Byrds and Spydercos and be totally fine cutting food, rope, cardboard etc. I did see some very, very minor chipping or rolling something when carving knotty seasoned wood, which led me to utilize microbevels. I've posted a zdp189 caly jr I reprofiled to full convex zero grind where this happened.
So when I talk about running 10-12 dps edges, despite those edges being twice as thin as the angle some people use, that's actually a good bit thicker than I need. I chose 10-12dps because it's quicker to apply than 8dps and gives me a little wiggle room in case of accidents. Chips aren't very severe even when I do something like accidentally chop into a rock while clearing briars from a camp site with my voyager xl.
17 degrees per side on a pocket knife is really inefficient and I simply can't fathom dropping hundreds to thousands on high performance knives and keeping the training wheels on. I've used this analogy a lot but to me it's like buying a nice sports car and keeping the tires at 20psi and running standard gas. It's leaving a lot of performance on the table for no good reason.
I'm happy with my edges .
I did however stumble across this post by Vivi over in Spyder Land that I agree with.
Hope you don't mind me borrowing a tiny portion of your post Vivi :
VivI Posted :
1. People use stupid geometries for their knives, to be blunt.
Cliff Stamp used to advocate for knife users to find their own optimal edge angle. His method was simple. Keep sharpening a given knife or cutting tool thinner and thinner, until the edge starts to fail while being used for the intended purpose of the tool. Sharpen it a degree or two thicker than the failure angle, or utilize a microbevel. I'm not aware of anyone here that does that.
I did do this. I found for my uses I could go below 10 degrees per side without a microbevel on VG10 & S30V & 8Cr Byrds and Spydercos and be totally fine cutting food, rope, cardboard etc. I did see some very, very minor chipping or rolling something when carving knotty seasoned wood, which led me to utilize microbevels. I've posted a zdp189 caly jr I reprofiled to full convex zero grind where this happened.
So when I talk about running 10-12 dps edges, despite those edges being twice as thin as the angle some people use, that's actually a good bit thicker than I need. I chose 10-12dps because it's quicker to apply than 8dps and gives me a little wiggle room in case of accidents. Chips aren't very severe even when I do something like accidentally chop into a rock while clearing briars from a camp site with my voyager xl.
17 degrees per side on a pocket knife is really inefficient and I simply can't fathom dropping hundreds to thousands on high performance knives and keeping the training wheels on. I've used this analogy a lot but to me it's like buying a nice sports car and keeping the tires at 20psi and running standard gas. It's leaving a lot of performance on the table for no good reason.
Lots of good info in this post. I'm a hunter, so skinning game is something my knives need to be able to do. I also don't really want to stop and sharpen a knife in the middle of it. I've played around with polished and toothy edges. Most of the time now I finish on a 1000 grit resin bonded stone, and then strop with gunny juice on balsa wood. Starting with 9 and going down to 1 mu. What I'm going for is a very fine toothy edgy. The gunny juice will polish it up some. My theory is it should provide a little more corrosion resistance, and it will pass through material without getting gunked up with crap.
Here's something for you guys to try. The next time you get something in that plastic bubble wrap, see how easy your knife will cut through it. Without putting weight on it, slide the blade across it and see if it cuts it. I've had a lot of knifes that would push cut paper with ease, but you could slide it back and forth over the bubble wrap and it wouldn't cut into it. I had it polished so much there was no bite to it...I think.
Here's something for you guys to try. The next time you get something in that plastic bubble wrap, see how easy your knife will cut through it. Without putting weight on it, slide the blade across it and see if it cuts it. I've had a lot of knifes that would push cut paper with ease, but you could slide it back and forth over the bubble wrap and it wouldn't cut into it. I had it polished so much there was no bite to it...I think.
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2022
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- 86
I have a couple posts in this thread…
I started trying to get knives really sharp about 10 years ago. I ran across the “knife Deburring “ book a couple years ago so I bought a BESS tester and began to accumulate the other equipment I thought I needed to achieve sub 50 on the BESS.
Turns out, all you need is a Tormek or similar wet stone, a honing wheel with Tormek’s PA-70 honing paste on it and a second wheel with 1mu polycrystalline diamonds.
-Grind to 15 degrees at 600 or above. I used CBN but I think the stone would do it.
-Hone with the Tormek paste at +.4 over your grinding angle (15.4).
-Make 3 to 4 light passes… you should have almost no burr now and it should be between 140 and 100 on the BESS. It’s OK if there is the tiniest of burrs, the next step should clean it.
-Hone at +.4 with the 1 micron diamonds using just the weight of the knife. I have been using this process on a variety of good steels. If you have measured VERY accurately and used light pressure you should end up with an extremely sharp knife. Yesterday I finished two Cutco knives that came out at 45 on my BESS.
45 is not that uncommon these days. Most knives score under 85 and as low as 45 using this simple process. Vadim had his system that worked well for him. I’m here to say, you don’t need paper or felt wheels to achieve these results.
Accurate measurements are critical though!
If anyone tries this and it doesn’t work for you feel free to reach out.
Al
I started trying to get knives really sharp about 10 years ago. I ran across the “knife Deburring “ book a couple years ago so I bought a BESS tester and began to accumulate the other equipment I thought I needed to achieve sub 50 on the BESS.
Turns out, all you need is a Tormek or similar wet stone, a honing wheel with Tormek’s PA-70 honing paste on it and a second wheel with 1mu polycrystalline diamonds.
-Grind to 15 degrees at 600 or above. I used CBN but I think the stone would do it.
-Hone with the Tormek paste at +.4 over your grinding angle (15.4).
-Make 3 to 4 light passes… you should have almost no burr now and it should be between 140 and 100 on the BESS. It’s OK if there is the tiniest of burrs, the next step should clean it.
-Hone at +.4 with the 1 micron diamonds using just the weight of the knife. I have been using this process on a variety of good steels. If you have measured VERY accurately and used light pressure you should end up with an extremely sharp knife. Yesterday I finished two Cutco knives that came out at 45 on my BESS.
45 is not that uncommon these days. Most knives score under 85 and as low as 45 using this simple process. Vadim had his system that worked well for him. I’m here to say, you don’t need paper or felt wheels to achieve these results.
Accurate measurements are critical though!
If anyone tries this and it doesn’t work for you feel free to reach out.
Al
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2022
- Messages
- 86
To start, for folks that sharpen, two must reads are “The Science of Sharp” and “Knife Deburring”. Both packed with information…
I thought what you are looking for was on Todd’s blog but I didn’t see it there. However, in the “Knife Deburring” book there are toothy vs refined electron microscope pics. And Vadim goes on to show why toothy keeps a “working edge”. Essentially, the teeth tear off and that action creates more teeth. It ain’t pretty, but it does kinda work for hard use outdoor knives.
Kitchen knives still get a refined edge though, at my house. I give my customers a 600 grit tooth… Just because they always wait too long to re-sharpen… and, there is some documentation that a 600 grit diamond or Cbn ground is allegedly longest lasting.
- Joined
- Nov 6, 2023
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- 18
I digested everything in the science of sharp blog a long time ago, and I do have vadim's deburring book and have followed his work online, too.
That specific post by Todd that I was referring to was apparently made somewhere off of his blog, I believe. It came up in a conversation I had recently in another forum. For context, the person was trying to make the argument that toothy edges were bad because teeth got ripped out and the edge would essentially "glass out" and dull, therefore polished edges have better edge retention than toothy edges. The person referenced that post by Todd, but of course could not link to it. In all the info I've come across and in all my real world experience, toothy edges hold up just fine, and do much better in both practical cutting and edge retention in most people's real-world EDC use. So I'm curious as to the context of Todd's post that multiple people clearly remember, but nobody can track down. I suspect it was more of an apex stability issue than an issue with a coarser grit toothy finish.
I'm with you on edge finish. Kitchen knives, axes, and blades that will touch wood regularly get a finish of 3K or above. EDC knives or anything that I want to have more slicing aggression, I pretty religiously finish right around 600 grit now.