Finally got to use a couple of my Reeves axes! Results are good and not so good......

[rjdankert]

Great news is that Lee has replied and is going to re-hang it for me!! Whoop Whoop! I will have to work on my hanging skills at another time. Relieved right now as I have a lot of other projects on the front burner and thankful and grateful that Lee is going to stand behind his work as well. He's a really cool guy!

RC

for you. And :thumbup: for Lee.

Bob

 

[300Six]

Supposedly these weak spots that can lead to "compression failure" in wood can be seen or not seen. If one can be seen in a piece of wood, then simply don't use it as is. If it can't be seen, then for all practical purposes, it doesn't exist. Sure after some use a handle may break and it is a possibility that it had the type of hidden defect that would classify it as a "compression failure", but the bottom line is, you just go get another handle. As far as fitting a handle, if you have one without visible defects and is straight grained (read no runout), pound and fit as much as necessary and get a good hang.



If you believe that "excessive pounding" is worth worrying about why not conduct a controlled scientific experiment? I'm thinking along these lines:
- Clearly and unambiguously state the objective
- Obtain a few hundred or so handles
- Inspect the handles to insure no hidden defects are present
- Test them on an appropriate machine
- Publish and get the results peer reviewed by members of the scientific community
- Report back here

Bob

Handle stickers or the wood emboss on Plumbs years ago stated; "Handle of Tough Springy Hickory - Tested - Fitted and Driven by- PLUMB" To me the operative word is "tested". Were handles placed in a specific device and cursory tension and torsion applied, invisible fractures, cracks and hidden faults would be uncovered before an axe was ever assembled. Buyers were considerably more knowledgeable, experienced and fussier 75 years ago and probably didn't tolerate handles that broke for no apparent reason. Testing handles was cheap insurance at the time.

 

[Steve Tall]

Well, apply pressure and get a break at the weakest point - how profound. Of course, anything will break at the weakest point. The 1914 article is difficult to say the least. Maybe partly because of the manner of speaking a century ago. The terminology is not well defined. However, I read the article as defining a break attributed to compression as a specific type of break that happens when two distinct events occur sequentially. The first event is the creation of a significant weak spot from a side impact or naturally caused in the growing tree. The second event is when the wood is so weakened (from the first event) that it breaks under pressure (regardless of the direction of the pressure) at that weak spot.

Post #32:

I read this as "compression injuries" are exactly equal to "compression failures". If this is what your definition is, what term can be used to define the week spot in the wood resulting from some trauma (before an actual break from pressure)?
​

Just to be precise here is the entire first sentence:
"When too great a pressure is applied to struts or columns of wood in the direction of the grain, the fibers bend or buckle at the weakest point, resulting in a streak or wrinkle on the face of the material, which is an indication of a compression failure (see figure 1)."

I honestly am not sure what I'm looking at in fig 1 above. I guess item one is yellow pine flooring with compression failure. Not sure what the sequence of events were that caused that.


Of course not. It would be silly to believe that, but I do believe science has sure changed a hell of a lot.


Again, are "compression failures" exactly equal to "defects". If these terms are equal, what term can be used to define the week spot in the wood resulting from some trauma (before an actual break from pressure)? A piece of wood with a weak spot is not necessarily a broken piece of wood. The author refers to the weak spots as "failure zones". The whole sentence partially quoted above: "The failure zones are regions where the cells have been permanently deformed or fractured by excessive compression forces parallel to the grain.". Actual fracture is not attributed in that paragraph to pressure direction.

Here is the paragraph cited:

Meets the "definition" of what? The 2012 source does not mention anything about "in the direction of the grain". "in the direction of the grain" is implied in the 1914 source with the buggy spokes. I suppose if you drive a spoke in until it bottoms out, and keep on beating it enough, bad things will happen. The author says this happens "occasionally", but does he know for a fact that these spokes developed a weak spot attributable to only exact hits perpendicular to the end grain by the spoke pounder? I see no evidence in that article to indicate that the author knew exactly where the weak spots came from.


My take (YMMV) on axe handles and defects.

Supposedly these weak spots that can lead to "compression failure" in wood can be seen or not seen. If one can be seen in a piece of wood, then simply don't use it as is. If it can't be seen, then for all practical purposes, it doesn't exist. Sure after some use a handle may break and it is a possibility that it had the type of hidden defect that would classify it as a "compression failure", but the bottom line is, you just go get another handle. As far as fitting a handle, if you have one without visible defects and is straight grained (read no runout), pound and fit as much as necessary and get a good hang.



If you believe that "excessive pounding" is worth worrying about why not conduct a controlled scientific experiment? I'm thinking along these lines:
- Clearly and unambiguously state the objective
- Obtain a few hundred or so handles
- Inspect the handles to insure no hidden defects are present
- Test them on an appropriate machine
- Publish and get the results peer reviewed by members of the scientific community
- Report back here

Bob

You can get sarcastic and spend a lot of time trying to pick apart what I wrote, Bob, but that doesn't make you any less wrong in your critique.

You initially thought that "hitting the wood on the end grain...would not be defined as compression per the article." I clarified that it actually did meet the definition of compression, both in the 1914 article and the 2012 book.

A "compression failure" type of defect is generally a "weak spot", but it doesn't just occur "from a side impact or naturally caused in the growing tree". It can also result from compressive forces to the lumber product "in the direction of the grain" (1914) or "parallel to the grain" (2012), which to me are two ways of describing the same thing (in this context). For more clarification, the 2012 article specifies "excessive compression forces parallel to the grain" (instead of perpendicular to the grain).

As I said, I brought up the subject of "compression failure" defects because it might shed more light on handle breaks that seem to defy the conventional ideas of where handles will break. The article's mention of buggy spokes failing after being impacted excessively (presumably on the end grain) was interesting to me because (1) they were hickory, and (2) it reminded me of how axe handles may be installed (or mis-installed). The failing buggy spokes might not be applicable to axe handles, but I thought it was conceivable.

 

[Steve Tall]

Handle stickers or the wood emboss on Plumbs years ago stated; "Handle of Tough Springy Hickory - Tested - Fitted and Driven by- PLUMB" To me the operative word is "tested". Were handles placed in a specific device and cursory tension and torsion applied, invisible fractures, cracks and hidden faults would be uncovered before an axe was ever assembled. Buyers were considerably more knowledgeable, experienced and fussier 75 years ago and probably didn't tolerate handles that broke for no apparent reason. Testing handles was cheap insurance at the time.

I think that's a good point.

 

[300Six]

I think that's a good point.

I was 'just another carpenter' in the housing construction industry for 30+ years and learned (through practical experience) always to flex strapping, 2 x 4s, 2 x 6s, and even joists, stringers and treads before doing anything structural with them.

 

[rcwells]

UPDATE:
I got this back from Lee some months back, and he went with a gorgeous "Hard Maple" (per his included note), which he said should hold up fine. I hope it does but the truth is at this point it's more of a collector's piece regardless.

I just wanted to make sure that everyone knew that Lee didn't charge me to rehang this axe and was super gracious and I am very happy with the piece and the service.

 

[Bigfattyt]

Very nice rehang.

I had opportunity to pick up some of his axes for very good prices, and passed. Regret that now.

Lovely set.