Find my ideal steel!

CPM 154 or BG42/CTS B75. All steels require some maintenance but these are stainless steels. Clean them off if you get anything acidic, salty, or corrosive in any way. Then wipe down with a silicone cloth like they sell in the sporting goods section of the big box store for $2.99. These steels sharpen well, perform good but don't seem difficult to sharpen with my DMT or Norton stuff. I don't use stones like soft arkansas on anything any more. Spyderco's system is great once you have used something else to thin out or remove steel and get the bevels set. Then they work in minutes.

Easy to sharpen stainless will be ones like 13C 26, Kershaws 14C, Buck's 420HC, stuff like that. They take nice edges too because they have less carbides but you have to just about be a sharpoening buff to notice differences in steels like that.
 
Remember when ATS34 was the latest and greatest steel for blades? As far as I'm concerned it still remains the blade "wonder steel" if properly heat treated.
 
Fallkniven makes nice folders with either the 3g or lam. cobalt. The workhorse model might suit your needs
 
dkb45 said:
I have tried out a lot of steels but just cannot figure out my ideal steel. I want something that is corrosion resistant enough to not require normal maintenance like carbon steels. It also has to take and hold a fine edge well, but not rely on an abundance of vanadium carbide likes Elmax or S30V.

I'm basically wanting something like D2 with lower carbide content and slightly better corrosion resistance. Does such a steel exist?
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Sure! If you really insist on not having hardly any carbides in your steel, AEB-L/13C26, 14C28N (used often by Kershaw) and similar "razor" steels fit your bill almost perfectly. They have very low carbide content, are very clean and fine grained, are tough, have just enough carbon to achieve fairly high hardness levels to help with edge retention, aren't insanely troublesome to sharpen, and have very good corrosion-resistance. They also happen to be inexpensive compared to most other high-quality cutlery steels. IMO it would be quite reasonable to describe them as "stain-resistant, simple carbon steels". They perform very much like classic carbon steels; they just have extra "free" chrome (not tied up in carbides) that give them the corrosion resistance.

If moderate carbide volume doesn't bother you, you really can't go wrong with CPM-154.
 
dkb45 said:
I have tried out a lot of steels but just cannot figure out my ideal steel. I want something that is corrosion resistant enough to not require normal maintenance like carbon steels. It also has to take and hold a fine edge well, but not rely on an abundance of vanadium carbide likes Elmax or S30V.

I'm basically wanting something like D2 with lower carbide content and slightly better corrosion resistance. Does such a steel exist?
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440A, 440B, perhaps 440C, but I think the carbide volume is comparable, 19C27, 13C26 (much lower carbide volume), AUS-10, maybe AUS-8, S35VN though that violates your vanadium limit. If you're so specific as to want to know/limit the carbide volume, you'd really need to start looking at data sheets from the steel makers and compare them to D2, which is in the 10%-15% range by volume for carbide.
 
I think you might be too hung up on carbide content here. It sounds like you want:

- Good corrosion resistance.
- Ability to take and hold a fine edge.
- Available on affordable knives.

Why not look into 14C28N or something similar?
 
14C28N is a great steel, but sadly it is only used by Kershaw who seems to have a vendetta against manual folders (I know they make some, but only a few and even fewer lefty friendly ones). I do like 154cm but maybe I'm just picky but I get a little tired of the same few steels. That said I know there are about 10 knives on my to buy list made with 154cm. Wonderfully well rounded steel with decent carbide distribution for good razor edge properties.

I realize now that the premise for this thread was a bit pointless, because I keep up on new knives and have tried out just about every commonly available steel. Maybe I was just a little too hopeful that some killer new and cheap steel came out.

That said, the Co Chaparral has been put onto the list. XHP and barely $100? Yes please!

Now all that out of the way, I do want to learn more about how carbides function. I know vanadium carbides are incredibly hard and cause a steel like S30V to not hold a razor edge well, but to hold a working edge great. I know that the vanadium carbides can only be abraded by something like diamond or CBN, and other materials will wear the matrix around the carbides out and plow some carbides out, which is why a diamond sharpened edge can feel more sharp even if it is less refined. I also know that chromium carbides are much softer, and in steels like ZDP and D2 can be refined with most all abrasives, but because they are larger the edge can act funky. I'm pretty sure 440C also relies on chromium carbides. Aside from all of that I barely know crap about carbides.
 
dkb45 said:
14C28N is a great steel, but sadly it is only used by Kershaw who seems to have a vendetta against manual folders (I know they make some, but only a few and even fewer lefty friendly ones). I do like 154cm but maybe I'm just picky but I get a little tired of the same few steels. That said I know there are about 10 knives on my to buy list made with 154cm. Wonderfully well rounded steel with decent carbide distribution for good razor edge properties.

I realize now that the premise for this thread was a bit pointless, because I keep up on new knives and have tried out just about every commonly available steel. Maybe I was just a little too hopeful that some killer new and cheap steel came out.

That said, the Co Chaparral has been put onto the list. XHP and barely $100? Yes please!

Now all that out of the way, I do want to learn more about how carbides function. I know vanadium carbides are incredibly hard and cause a steel like S30V to not hold a razor edge well, but to hold a working edge great. I know that the vanadium carbides can only be abraded by something like diamond or CBN, and other materials will wear the matrix around the carbides out and plow some carbides out, which is why a diamond sharpened edge can feel more sharp even if it is less refined. I also know that chromium carbides are much softer, and in steels like ZDP and D2 can be refined with most all abrasives, but because they are larger the edge can act funky. I'm pretty sure 440C also relies on chromium carbides. Aside from all of that I barely know crap about carbides.
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It's not the fact that knives have carbides or whatever, I can cleanly shave my face with elmax and s30v off of cheap Chinese stones. It's the size of the carbide clusters. D2 is notorious for having large clusters of carbides. PSF27 is a cousin of D2 and I can shave with that too, I just did it last weekend. Not the easy to get parts, but the harder parts on my neck where the hair goes in all kinds of funky directions. It wasn't as clean of a shave as a razor, but it worked and I didn't nick myself. Maybe a better sharpening system or better sharpening techniques can get you where you want to be and not the steel itself that's holding you back?

You can get everything you need to sharpen a knife to hair whittling, face shaving levels for less than a hundred bucks and a few hours worth of learning and practicing. Then you'd be free to buy whatever kind of steel you want.
 
bodog said:
It's not the fact that knives have carbides or whatever, I can cleanly shave my face with elmax and s30v off of cheap Chinese stones. It's the size of the carbide clusters. D2 is notorious for having large clusters of carbides. PSF27 is a cousin of D2 and I can shave with that too, I just did it last weekend. Not the easy to get parts, but the harder parts on my neck where the hair goes in all kinds of funky directions. It wasn't as clean of a shave as a razor, but it worked and I didn't nick myself. Maybe a better sharpening system or better sharpening techniques can get you where you want to be and not the steel itself that's holding you back?

You can get everything you need to sharpen a knife to hair whittling, face shaving levels for less than a hundred bucks and a few hours worth of learning and practicing. Then you'd be free to buy whatever kind of steel you want.
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You seem to know a lot about steel and their use in knives. May I know what kind of experience you have with steels and knives?

Note: This is me trying to not be my usual blunt self. ;)
 
I only know what I've experienced and how that matches up or not with info put out by people smarter and more experienced than me. And that last last post of mine was trying to put things in a way that's easy to understand. If I was a metallurgist or knifemaker, I'd say it, but I don't. I do offer my own experiences and thoughts though, same as you.
 
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bodog said:
I only know what I've experienced and how that matches up or not with info put out by people smarter and more experienced than me. And that last last post of mine was trying to put things in a way that's easy to understand. If I was a metallurgist or knifemaker, I'd say it, but I don't. I do offer my own experiences and thoughts though, same as you.
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What kinds of steels and knives have you experienced using? Yep, we've all had some experience and a few people post opinions on things they have no experience with. Those are the ones to look out for especially when they opine something they've only read on the 'net. I always try to avoid posting opinions on things I have no experience with. :)
 
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Ugh, how about you pm me if you want to continue this. I'll simply say that I have used all the steels he mentioned except n690 and VG10, and I've used several of the other steels mentioned by others, plus a couple more that haven't been mentioned.
 
Hey quit derailing my thread! :)

I probably am too hung up on carbides. I know that the carbides are why S30V holds a razor edge for crap and have just automatically associated that with all carbides. I know that ZDP is packed full of chromium carbides but it does a razor edge excellently, and D2 isn't bad at all with it. I really am a "latest and greatest" junky, so I keep erroneously thinking that older steels are somehow worse.
 
bodog said:
...Maybe a better sharpening system or better sharpening techniques can get you where you want to be and not the steel itself that's holding you back?
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I think this is correct. Time, technique, equipment (i.e. right tool for the job) make a world of difference. What makes you think S30V can't take or hold a razor-edge? I can get my Benchmade 745 just as shaving-sharp as my ZDP-189 Caly3. But it loses that edge after cutting up a bunch of cardboard. Thing is, so does the ZDP-189 and so do the AEB-L knives I have :eek: That's not surprising, it's expected. S30V's high carbide-content comes into play AFTER the razor-edge is lost - the carbides protect the matrix from wearing away as quickly as that of a low-carbide steel... except that you need to compare similar geometries (i.e. edge angle and thickness) to really see that. want to see S30V done well? Buy a Phil Wilson custom, he uses S30V (among other steels).

An Opinel has very thin edge geometry that makes is cut with high efficiency and requires very little effort to restore, so it is easy to get a razor-edge. The INOX is basically 12C27M, close cousin to 420HC. If you like it but want something with a nicer handle, look for a Buck or Kershaw or even a Gerber with similar edge geometry, or just buy one you like and modify the edge by grinding it thinner (I did this recently on a Buck Stockman and Paklite skinner). Cold Steel has offerings in Aus8 and soon CTS-BD1, just pick the style you want. If you want high wear-resistance, find a blade of the style you want in a high-wear steel.

I agree with bodog, too much emphasis here on carbide-content or steel type (when wear-resistance isn't even a specific goal) rather than overall design and edge-geometry.
 
I'd recommend just getting over the steel obsession. It's way less important than a knife that fits your uses well. As long as you stay out of the budget steels (8cr, 3cr, "stainless") and can sharpen correctly you'll be fine.
 
zhyla said:
I'd recommend just getting over the steel obsession. It's way less important than a knife that fits your uses well. As long as you stay out of the budget steels (8cr, 3cr, "stainless") and can sharpen correctly you'll be fine.
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I try not to be a steel snob because I know that the lesser steels are perfectly serviceable and have never failed me once. It's just that once you get a taste of super high end steels and their insane performance it becomes hard to remember that the lower grade steels are still good enough.

I do want to know the better of the no vanadium carbide steels, though. I don't like requiring diamond stones (I know that all suitable abrasives work, but I want to abrade the carbides down), and I want my stropping compounds to work at full effectiveness too. I know, overly specific, but if I do something I want to do it right.
 
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