Fine stones making a duller edge?

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May 25, 2018
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I'm a sharpening newbie, but seem to have the same problem across a few different sharpening systems:

I'm getting a pretty decent edge on coarse stones. Not necessarily shaving sharp, but slicing paper easily. When I switch to the fine stones, the edge seems to get duller. Stropping helps a bit, but I am expecting the edge to go from sharp to sharper as a I move up in grit, not the other way!

I've had an identical experience on the Sharpmaker, Worksharp GSS, Spyderco Doublestuff and a King double-sided water stone. I'm sure this is some mistake I'm making with angle, pressure or something else. What could I be doing so wrong across all of these systems?
 
A few thoughts...

Are you creating a full length burr on both sides of the blade on the coarse stone? Do you know if you have sharpened all the way to the edge?

Are you removing the burr on the coarse stone, or reducing it before progressing?

Are you creating a burr with the fine stone?

Are you removing any remaining burr on the fine stone...or on a strop?

Angle control and diminishing pressure are necessary as you progress from coarser to finer.
 
In addition to the above, it's worth noting that soft stones like Japanese water stones that form a slurry can be frustrating to apex an edge on due to the slurry plowing into the edge. Great for preventing a ragged burr from forming, but edge-trailing strokes are often needed to finish on them.
 
Do you use a sharpie on the edge? Do you have a loup to magnify? These can be useful to see what's actually happening.
 
Do you use a sharpie on the edge? Do you have a loup to magnify? These can be useful to see what's actually happening.
Thanks everyone.

Yes, I am using a 10x led loupe and a sharpie on the edge. Using angle guides for the freehanded methods listed above. I’ve been trying to keep all the “training wheels” on while I learn.

I’ve been creating the initial burr on the coarse stones and can usually feel that. I am having a really hard time feeling the burr with the finer stones. Knives have all been pretty soft steel. Rough rider 440a, Opinel, Case TS and cv etc.

I think it is coming down to pressure and angle. I know I’ve been using too much pressure and pushing the angle a little too much hoping to get a sharper and finer edge.

How do you know how much pressure to use? I’ve seen anywhere from 1-6lbs or pressure recommended but I have no idea what 1lb of pressure feels like.

Any tips?
 
Any tips?
OK . . . all you old hands that have been here for ever . . . 'Bagger is turning his soap box upside down . . . now he is getting out those old tiresome photos . . . the obnoxious listen to the professor look begins to form on his ugly puss . . . all that is missing is a pointer stick and half lens glasses :
Oh what the heck . . . one more time.
I only wish to prevent the mental pain and anguish I went through for half my life from taking it's toll on another unsuspecting tyro.

Here . . . this is the bottom line first : hand sharpening is frustrating, wasteful and a stupid thing to do. Does the Ford motor company machine their precision parts by having some worker rub them on a file or hold them in one hand and file on them with a file in the other hand ?
No
So why are we attempting to do basically the same thing with our knives ?
Sure it's possible with enough practice and butt puckering.

. . . here we are . . . I skiped ahead after an hour or so of ranting and banging my tambourine and banging the table and banging my head on the wall . . .
Here . . . get one of these, learn to use it, follow step by step as if it were a sacred ritual . . .
and those fine and ultra fine and ultra, ultra fine stones will ALWAYS be right on the apex removing metal and not dubbing the edge over. You will be producing an edge that will be so sharp it will make you put the knife down afterwards and rethink this whole sharp knife hobby and whether or not you really want to carry around and use something that is that frighteningly sharp.
You do. Just be careful of where that edge is going to go if you slip . . . just don't let anything you care about get in the way of it.

Yes, yes I have piles of really high quality sharpening stones that I some times fart around with sharpening free hand (mostly I sharpen my hand tool woodworking edges on these using a jig that rolls on the stone) . . .
but when I want a seriously sharp knife I use this :
(that's an Edge Pro Apex)
PS: with seriously decent steel that is properly hardened and tempered I can even ignore the bur it takes care of it's self and comes off on the last stones such as the Shapton Glass 4,000. Super easy to do edge trailing strokes when needed because there is no question you are ON THE APEX.

Seriously decent steel = Spyderco's M4, Spyderco's ZDP-189, Benchmade's M390, Cold Steel's CTS-XHP . . . there are lots of good ones.
Without further a due I give you :
IMG_3334.jpg
 
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I'm a sharpening newbie, but seem to have the same problem across a few different sharpening systems
Hi,
There is your problem ;)
Figure out ONE thing first before trying eleven different things.

So what did you do exactly with the worksharp gss and why?
What grit did you start with, how many strokes, ...?

This is what I'd do
- get pen and paper to take notes
- pick one knife to use up completely (destroy) while you figure this out (ex rough ryder, opinel)
- pick one coarse "hard" stone to use and nothing else (Worksharp GSS coarse)

and practice sharpening the same knife until you can push cut paper off that one stone
thats grind one side with 17degree guide until you raise a burr (1-2 minutes tops)
grind other side with 17degree guide until you raise burr (1-2 minutes tops)
then do 20 alternating passes (10pps) with 17 degree guide
then do 10 alternating passes (5pps) with 20 degree guide , repeat once or twice until you can
shave, push cut newspaper

repeat this 5minute practice two more times (15min practice session)
repeat this 15min at least three times a week

first time sharpening might take more than 1-2 minutes if the blade has some crazy high angle
dont use more than .5 or 1lb on the worksharp gss diamond plate so that it lasts a long time
use soapy water for lube
higher angle guide/deburring/microbeveling much lighter like touching pointy pencil/pushpin (.1lb)

How do you know how much pressure to use? I’ve seen anywhere from 1-6lbs or pressure recommended but I have no idea what 1lb of pressure feels like.
Do you own a scale?
Think like brushing your teeth, that might be 1lb or less
Or
Take two fingers and press then against a table, start gently and keep pressing harder
until that the skin under the end of your fingernails turns white,
thats about 1lb, pressing harder wont turn them any more whiter
about half-white is .5 lb.

shaping force, think like brushing your teeth ... about 0.5lb to 1lb for diamonds
apexing force, think like touching the pointy tip of a pencil or nail or pushpin with your fingertip. You control power with your arm not your fingertips...
 
These are all great tips bagger and bucket! and I really appreciate the help. There is so much info on here and places like YouTube it can be overwhelming and make you want to jump around instead of focusing.

I think I’ve been really overdoing it on pressure and on the number of strokes. It’s been taking me my about 10 min to get the burr on the coarse stones with a brand new knife. I’m checking for a burr every couple minutes. I guess I should be checking more often.

When I am done with the coarse stones I have a pretty sharp knife that can push cut paper. My real problem is then switching over to the finer stones. I think I may be pushing too hard on the Fine stones. The descriptions of pressure are really helpful.
 
Thanks everyone.

Yes, I am using a 10x led loupe and a sharpie on the edge. Using angle guides for the freehanded methods listed above. I’ve been trying to keep all the “training wheels” on while I learn.

I’ve been creating the initial burr on the coarse stones and can usually feel that. I am having a really hard time feeling the burr with the finer stones. Knives have all been pretty soft steel. Rough rider 440a, Opinel, Case TS and cv etc.

I think it is coming down to pressure and angle. I know I’ve been using too much pressure and pushing the angle a little too much hoping to get a sharper and finer edge.

How do you know how much pressure to use? I’ve seen anywhere from 1-6lbs or pressure recommended but I have no idea what 1lb of pressure feels like.

Any tips?

No use in trying estimate pounds of pressure. What one individual feels as a given amount will very likely be completely different than what somebody else 'feels' as a given measured amount of pressure. So, trying to rely on someone else's guess of pounds of pressure is of no help.

So:
While in the finishing touches, just imagine you're lightly brushing dust from the surface of your stone, and your edge is so very fine that you don't want to damage it in doing so. That's always worked for me, in making sure pressure's not too heavy.

For the angle, I've always found it helpful to begin each pass with the angle conservatively low, and then very, very gently and subtly raising the spine of the blade until you can feel the apex beginning to 'bite' into the surface of the stone. This is where that light touch afforded by that 'brushing dust' technique will help you. A very light touch afforded by a light fingertip hold on your knife will better help you feel when that 'biting' friction happens, as the apex begins to make contact. When you begin to feel that biting contact, STOP raising the spine of the blade. Practice this technique on something relatively softer than the stone AND your knife's edge, like a smooth & flat piece of plastic or even a sheet of paper. When the spine is raised high enough, you'll easily feel the apex start to dig into the material, and you'll get a feel for how high you need to raise the spine for that to happen.
 
Thank you. Really interesting idea. I’ve felt that biting with a leather strop before. I’ll have to try that out on the stones and see how it works.

Looking forward to some more time off during the 4th of July so I can work on the practice plan that B bucketstove recommended. I’m traveling, but snuck along my doublestuff, angle guides and a couple practice knives.
 
First things first. Relax. :)

I'm not even being sarcastic. Don't let all the information freak you out and get you flustered. It isn't that hard unless we make it that hard, which is what usually happens. Some really good advice above.

Be sure to use the marker on every stone, not just the first one. Me? I wouldn't even concern yourself with what specific angle you're at, just sharpen to the factory angle, whatever it is. Don't worry about pressure, lighter is typically better so error to that side. Yes, different stone types benefit from varying pressures but that's more advanced stuff that will come soon enough. The only negative thing lighter pressure might cause is it taking you longer. Heavier pressure can create all sorts of issues for the knife and the stones.

Put the Sharpmaker aside, or use it exclusively. You only have two angle choices there and if you have a different angle free handing than those offered on the Sharpmaker, it can be an issue.

You should be able to shave the hair on your arm before you move on to any other stone. That includes course stones. Do not get concerned about super fine grits or highly polished edges or any of that sort of thing right now. The truth is, that's all primarily fine tuning stuff and not really necessary for the average user. Yes, yes, different steels and different usage requirements and all of those things are factors but again, that's more advanced stuff and I think far too many people think they need to be achieving these insane edges right away or the collective knife world will tell them they suck at sharpening. Don't worry about it. Relax and take your time and don't force things.

A good EDC edge can be had off fairly course stones and a quick strop.

If your stones require lubricant, keep them lubed up, more is better in the beginning. Yes, that can slow things down on certain medias but just saying that if you're not sure, error to more rather than less. If you haven't done that, give your stones a good cleaning.

Sharpening, regardless of media or method is all about angle. Everything is secondary to angle so put your focus there to start.
 
My real problem is then switching over to the finer stones.
Yes that was very clear. I got that. I know what you are going through.
Keep in mind if you insist on this hand sharpening madness . . . little things effect the out come. The curve of the bill on your operator's cap . . . freeekin' vital that.
Which side of your mouth you stick your tongue out of . . . this can depend on how the aspects of Mars relates to the rest of the zodiac; find a good astrologer is my advice.

Or if you want to just relax and sharpen your knife you can always be a big candy ass like me and get an Edge Pro.

:cool: PS: oh and never try to hand sharpen with your keys in your pocket on Thursdays . . . it throws off your whole ionic aura . . . leave them well away from the sharpening area . . . but only on Thursdays. :p
Hand sharpening is not easy; there's a lot to know.
 
Yes that was very clear. I got that. I know what you are going through.
Keep in mind if you insist on this hand sharpening madness . . . little things effect the out come. The curve of the bill on your operator's cap . . . freeekin' vital that.
Which side of your mouth you stick your tongue out of . . . this can depend on how the aspects of Mars relates to the rest of the zodiac; find a good astrologer is my advice.

Or if you want to just relax and sharpen your knife you can always be a big candy ass like me and get an Edge Pro.

:cool: PS: oh and never try to hand sharpen with your keys in your pocket on Thursdays . . . it throws off your whole ionic aura . . . leave them well away from the sharpening area . . . but only on Thursdays. :p
Hand sharpening is not easy; there's a lot to know.

Haha, thanks for the laugh. So I didn't buy the Edge Pro today (I've clearly bought too many sharpening systems already!) but I did sit down and read the Apex manual which had some nice diagrams on angles. The Edge Pro site had this really interesting comment and I think it might explain some of what is happening with my sharpening:

1. IMPORTANT NOTE TO CUSTOMERS
When you re-profile to a very low angle you wind up with a very wide bevel that is very difficult to get sharp, and it leaves you with a very weak edge. Instead, keep your primary bevel up at 19 degrees or higher and put on a second bevel between 10 and 15 degrees. You can make you primary bevel very small, like 25 or 30 thousandths wide. Now the knife will re-sharpen in seconds with only a very fine stone or even a tape. This will make the knife cut with such little effort it will amaze you. Also note, this is not a micro bevel. A micro bevel is achieved with the ceramic hone.

I'm pretty sure that I have been trying to go too low on my angles. I've read over and over about how a lower inclusive angle will make things sharper and it has me pushing to go lower than I probably should.
 
Yes that was very clear. I got that. I know what you are going through.
Keep in mind if you insist on this hand sharpening madness . . . little things effect the out come. The curve of the bill on your operator's cap . . . freeekin' vital that.
Which side of your mouth you stick your tongue out of . . . this can depend on how the aspects of Mars relates to the rest of the zodiac; find a good astrologer is my advice.

Or if you want to just relax and sharpen your knife you can always be a big candy ass like me and get an Edge Pro.

A million years ago when I was 7 or 8 years old, I would trudge along with my old man and brothers and brother in law and whoever else to Bob's Hardware. Mind you, that was a few miles drive in the Monte Carlo or Scout or Power Wagon. They'd all buy their hunting licenses and I'd drool over the display of Buck knives. Buck was still in Oregon then but close enough to be called "local" and everyone I knew had some form or another of Buck knife and a Case or similar pocket knife. I thought they were magical. Bob's hardware was just a general store kinda thing, sorta like an Ace but with even more diversity. In fact I think he eventually became an Ace franchise. Bob was a big fella, rotund and not much on talking. I can remember hearing about upland bird stamps and federal waterfowl tags, but I was too young to legally hunt so it was the knives I gravitated to.

My grandpa was a mechanical genius. I mean that with all the sincerity a computer screen can convey. He didn't have much schooling but there was nothing that man couldn't do with his hands and his gift for "inherent" math was amazing. He built a tractor out of a scrap pile and mostly galvanized pipe. His table saw, band saws, etc. were all homemade. But his three-bladed Case pocket knife? Bah. He'd run it across some sand paper once in a while or across a grinder wheel. Everyone I know was like that. Knives were kinda "sharp enough".

So I started sharpening the family knives on an old 4" SiC and black Arkansas stone. It was my way of being connected to what I couldn't actually do, hunt. Long after I was actually hunting, everyone still brought their knives to me to sharpen. In retrospect, I wasn't really very good at it. Sort of hit or miss I reckon. I didn't know anything about burrs or angles or pressure or lubricants or anything. But people had such dull knives that whatever I did made them think they were awesome. Looking back, my edges dressed and cleaned a lot of fish and game, whittled a lot of marshmallow sticks and tent stakes, and opened countless packages. I cringe to think of those edges now, but no one else did.

Even today, as I work in manufacturing, I am always a bit surprised how little folks care about a decent knife edge, especially in their kitchen knives. I routinely witness manual machining artists that tote around dull knives, often expensive ones.

Far too often I read on the internet about people asking about the "one knife" or the "best steel" or recommend me a knife and the answers are almost always too painful to read. It's rare that anyone recommends a good lower grade knife and some sharpening equipment. We have to have low ride pocket clips and uber strong locks and blades that flick open with a wish and all of that. What's the point in owning a knife if you can't sharpening it?

So, for many, many years I struggled with free hand sharpening. I knew those around me were pleased, but I knew I wasn't. I just didn't really have anyone to teach me or any knowledge of any real sources of education. Eventually, I bought a KME because I was resigned to getting super fine edges and reconciled that I was never going to get them free handing. I love the KME, it is fantastic and I have customized and upgraded it quite a lot. There is no debating the edge quality I can achieve.

But it isn't the same. For me, free handing is like redneck zen. I love it. Even if I'm not or wasn't always good at it. These days people will tell you that Arkansas stones can't sharpen super steels and that you'll ruin your stones and so on and so on. Sure, whatever. I do just fine with S90V, XHP, and ZDP189. Is it ideal? Maybe not but do I get very nice edges? Yep. I got lost in chasing "tree topping" edges and the like for a time. I marveled at blades that could split a hair under it's own weight. I cursed myself for not being able to achieve it. Why? Why couldn't I do that?! It's the equipment! So I spent the money on all manner of things. It's me?! So I studied everything I could find. Then when I could do it, the thrill of the achievement was just not what I thought it would be.

After many decades, I'm more or less back to just getting good working edges on my knives and then focusing on maintaining them. I don't sharpen much any more. I maintain. I don't care if my knives can cleave the back hair off a gnat. Those edges are either a passion or a fool's folly, but they are not necessary.

Free hand sharpening for a good, long lasting, working edge does not need to be that complicated or difficult. I have zero issue with guided systems and certainly recommend them and use them but most anyone, if they slow down and follow some good principles can get working edges on knives.

I know this was a long ramble, and I only quoted you Wowbagger as an effort to illustrate my point, not in an effort to be contrary. I know you were being largely tongue in cheek. :)

Find what works for you and don't stress what the internet tells you is a standard. Filter it all.
 
Haha, thanks for the laugh. So I didn't buy the Edge Pro today (I've clearly bought too many sharpening systems already!) but I did sit down and read the Apex manual which had some nice diagrams on angles. The Edge Pro site had this really interesting comment and I think it might explain some of what is happening with my sharpening:



I'm pretty sure that I have been trying to go too low on my angles. I've read over and over about how a lower inclusive angle will make things sharper and it has me pushing to go lower than I probably should.

When you re-profile to a very low angle you wind up with a very wide bevel that is very difficult to get sharp, and it leaves you with a very weak edge.

That's where the folks at Edge Pro and I diverge ! ! !
I think one can hardly go too shallow and I find it just fine to keep the single, shallow, bevel.
One example is my Little Monster. It is extremely shallow AND THIN BEHIND THE EDGE and it has stayed easily shave sharp for about a year of careful kitchen cutting and package opening. I use a high quality plastic cutting board and don't attempt to cut bones (no fish bones etc.).
Nah dude, nah . . . thin and shallow is GOOD! Thin and shallow is your friend . . . unless you're an idiot.
You can see the sharpie in this photo
IMG_3374.jpg

Here he is a year later, patina and all.
I love this thing. I keep threatening to make a sheath for it and EDC it.
This little monster cuts like a real knife . . . because . . . it is a real knife.

"Knife like objects" that are five millimeters thick, thirty thousandths behind the edge with twenty something degrees per side . . . I don't know what all THAT's about but it isn't cutting stuff.
IMG_5003.jpg

PS:
keep your primary bevel up at 19 degrees or higher and put on a second bevel between 10 and 15 degrees.
Isn't that physically impossible ?
You / they probably mean the opposite . . . primary 10° to 15° micro secondary 19°.
Not for me thanks.:eek: ;)
 
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OK that wasn't a good example; the bevel isn't wide.
Obviously I'm not into cameras.
Here is a much better, and tougher to sharpen, example in M4. It is a single sharpening bevel (no micro bevel) that is fairly shallow. I used no secondary bevel or tricky steeper angle to debur. It is just a single bevel polished to 4,000 Shapton Glass on the Edge Pro.
It's hair whittling, it took a while because I was making both sides of the factory grind into two identical angles but it wasn't a bit difficult to get silly sharp.

The photo is awful but the area near the tip is pretty true to actual size. The belly area looks larger because of the glare off the bevel and the area near the pivot is smaller than actually it is.
IMG_5328.jpg
 
I don't care if my knives can cleave the back hair off a gnat. Those edges are either a passion or a fool's folly, but they are not necessary.

! . . . splutter . . . not necessary ? ? ? . . . not necessary . . . ? ? ?
. . .
. . .
BLASPHEMER !
:p :D

Free hand sharpening for a good, long lasting, working edge does not need to be that complicated or difficult.. . . slow down and follow some good principles can get working edges
That's the sort of edge I put on my drill bits free hand. And I do have a Drill Doctor; works well for when I have multiples of the same size to sharpen.

OK some times if I have the time I will take the bevels on the drill bits into the vaguely polished realm.
I can't resist those two symmetrical curls shooting up through the flutes.

I know this was a long ramble
Ramble away. I enjoyed it !

So I studied everything I could find. Then when I could do it, the thrill of the achievement was just not what I thought it would be.
Fortunately for me I am easily entertained.
I never get tired of the frightening little feeling when the edge sinks into my finger nail a little bit.
 
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I's kind of off topic but kind of on because of the coarser edge being good enough.
Murray Carter presses his finger tips against the edge and feels for . . . what ?. . . the edge to kind of hang on his skin ? Kind of stick in like a bunch of cactus thorns?
I don't know exactly.
It satisfies him though. He calls it sharp when it does that.
My edges won't do that. They might slice into your finger tips . . . but you won't feel it . . . until after the dripping starts.
I never test my edges that way.
There is pokey sticky sharp and then there is skin cut with no sensation sharp.
To each their own.
 
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I find the shaving sharp to be just about perfect for a user edge. The hair on my arm is what I use to test.

Interesting to read the suggestions on pressure. I have never had much luck moving through stones either as they seem to blunt/undo the work on the previous stone. I normally jump from a coarse stone or diamond stone to my butchers steel - which I am very good with and probably over-rely on to finish the free hand work on a stone. I am going to try using a more delicate technique on finer stones.
 
A follow up question from my since everyone has been so generous with their opinion:

Is it harder to freehand a more narrow angle?

I’ve had better luck reprofiling and sharpening at 40 degrees inclusive than a whittling knife at 20 degrees inclusive. Is that to be expected for a newbie like me?
 
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