Fine stones making a duller edge?

[Obsessed with Edges]

A follow up question from my since everyone has been so generous with their opinion:

Is it harder to freehand a more narrow angle?

I’ve had better luck reprofiling and sharpening at 40 degrees inclusive than a whittling knife at 20 degrees inclusive. Is that to be expected for a newbie like me?

I've found in freehanding, there'll be a certain relatively narrow angle range that results from how I intuitively hold a knife while sharpening. In other words, there'll be a certain way I go about it that feels 'right' or comfortable in my hands, and that influences what the angle will ultimately be, within a range. I always seem to notice, after reprofiling freehand, all of my knives end up somewhere in the 25 - 30° inclusive range, unless I make a deliberate effort to go a little lower or higher. And since I'm still trending a bit lower in angle preference (I'm REALLY liking edges around ~ 25° inclusive or maybe even a little lower), my 'comfortable' hold on my knives is adapting in that direction, nowadays.

So, if you're sharpening a factory edge that might not be in that 'comfortable' angle range for your hands, it may feel awkward one way or another, whether it's too high or too low for what you're accustomed to.

But in very general terms, I've found the wider bevels created by going lower in angle will ultimately make it easier to feel flush contact on the bevel, simply because they are wider and therefore inherently a little more stable on the stone. The best example of this is in sharpening a scandi-grind blade with it's very wide bevels, which act as a built-in angle guide.

 

[Uncle Timbo]

When I was a young, wet nosed hillbilly, back in the hollar in WV, Dad taught me how to sharpen a pocketknife on a wetrock when I was about 10 years old. The wetrock was a fine/medium and all the work was done on the medium side. The only thing we did on the fine side was to knock the burr off.
Dad used to barter with a guy that owned a produce stand/market. When we would go shopping and go to checkout, he would hand Dad 4 or 5 dull pocketknives for him to sharpen. Dad would get money off the bill.
I got good enough that Dad had me doing all the sharpening and the ol boy didn't know the difference.
Just and wetrock, a newspaper and some oil. Kinda like learning how to shoot iron sights before a laser or a scope.
Btw, that was 53 years ago and Dad hated stainless steel. He said, it won't hold an edge like carbon steel. Of course he never saw the stainless steel that we have today. But you know....I am kinda partial to carbon steel. Must be the hillbilly in me.

 

[Blues]

But you know....I am kinda partial to carbon steel.

You're not alone. I love the modern steels but there's something about those carbon steel blades...especially the vintage ones.

 

[Uncle Timbo]

Yeah, like this one that I found on the RR tracks when I was a kid and was lucky enough to get Scott Gossman to completely rework the knife for me and put one sweet regrind on her.
This was way before his work took off.
I don't know what the steel is in these PAL knives, but I read they might of saw action in WWII. It simply holds an edge.

 

[Blues]

My guess would be 1095 like many or most of the other military contract knives back then.

 

[Uncle Timbo]

Thanks Mr. Blues.
Mr. Peanut, ask your friends with pocket knives if you can sharpen their knives for them to get some practice. But be careful, you might be starting something that's grows legs. You might become, "that guy" that everybody brings their knives to when they get full. But, there are worse things in life?
Wait until they bring you a tango blade with the tip broke off and ask you to fix it. Then you naturally say, what the Sam Hill did you use this for?
Oh, I had to get the license plates off my daughter's car and I couldn't find a......

 

[bucketstove]

No use in trying estimate pounds of pressure. What one individual feels as a given amount will very likely be completely different than what somebody else 'feels' as a given measured amount of pressure. So, trying to rely on someone else's guess of pounds of pressure is of no help.

Hi,
Do you have a scale that can measure a pound (ex food scale)?
How many ounces or pounds before your two fingernail ends turn white?
(before the blood is forced out of the capilaries)
Two fingers, like you might put on a blade in your hand .
I'd be very surprised if your number is much different from anybody elses including mine.

So:
While in the finishing touches, just imagine you're lightly brushing dust from the surface of your stone, and your edge is so very fine that you don't want to damage it in doing so. That's always worked for me, in making sure pressure's not too heavy.

But you just said there is no use
never have I ever brushed dust off with 20 grams/~1oz ... how many grams are you using?

 

[bgentry]

Murray Carter presses his finger tips against the edge and feels for . . . what ?. . . the edge to kind of hang on his skin ?

He is feeling for the edge dragging against his finger tips. "Biting in" to his skin, as opposed to sliding harmlessly over it. I've been doing this test for several years now and have become better at it. Though I won't say that I have any real mastery of this technique. I haven't cut myself doing it in at least 3 or 4 years now, so that's something.

I find this to be a good basic test for sharpness and it definitely gives you an idea of whether or not this edge will bite into material (like rope or fish skin). I've read, but can't confirm, that this kind of test works best with edges that are around 2000 grit JIS, or 8 micron. I suppose that kind of edge produces nice "teeth". This is just what I read somewhere. I think from Ken Schwartz.

My edges won't do that. They might slice into your finger tips . . . but you won't feel it . . . until after the dripping starts.

I haven't experienced many edges like that, but you might be right. I no longer polish very many edges as I prefer edges on the coarse end of the spectrum.

In his video series, Carter shows himself sharpening a blade, ending with a 6000 grit King waterstone, and a lot of careful stropping strokes on that stone. Then he shaves his beard off with the that blade. He uses the 3 finger test on that edge repeatedly as he is trying to get it up to the level he wants. I would expect a blade that can comfortably shave a beard to be quite sharp, though I have no way of comparing this level to anything else, including your extremely polished edges you are describing.

My main point here is that I'm not sure if your edges are impossible to 3 finger test and not be cut, or if it's just that you lack experience with the technique. This is not an insult in any way. It's a topic for discussion. As I said, I'm better at the 3 finger test than I used to be, but I certainly have lots more to learn.

Brian.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Hi,
Do you have a scale that can measure a pound (ex food scale)?
How many ounces or pounds before your two fingernail ends turn white?
(before the blood is forced out of the capilaries)
Two fingers, like you might put on a blade in your hand .
I'd be very surprised if your number is much different from anybody elses including mine.

I actually KNOW my hands are different in terms of when fingertips turn white under some exerted pressure. I noticed this a long time ago as a kid, in comparing with others in doing similar tasks. Blood circulation in the extremities varies widely from person to person; some have hands that run 'cold' more often (this runs in my family on my father's side, including my own hands), and others have hands that stay warmer (my mother's side of the family). Shake hands with different people, and the difference in hand temperature (therefore blood circulation to the hands) becomes obvious at times. All of it has to do with differences in individual vascular anatomy (genetics) and influenced by health issues, medicines, etc. Even caffeine alters how much blood flow my hands get; especially in very cold weather, when at times, my own fingertips turn white and bloodless without exerting any pressure at all.

But you just said there is no use
never have I ever brushed dust off with 20 grams/~1oz ... how many grams are you using?

It's not difficult knowing that the pressure needed for brushing dust away with a knife edge, i.e., just enough to keep contact on a surface without drifting away from contact, is so minimal as to be negligible. Imagine doing so on the surface of your own skin, edge-leading, with a razor-sharp edge on a blade; that's all that's needed to KNOW you have to keep it light. No scales necessary to understand it, and therefore no need for guessing or measuring how many lbs or ozs of pressure are being applied. Keep it that light, and a blade's fine edge on a stone will be pretty safe. The hazards of too much pressure are learned with use, in dealing with burred, rolled or chipped edges that just keep happening; sooner or later it sinks in that pressure's too heavy. I've never used a scale for such things in my life, and have never needed to. It adds another layer of complication in sharpening that really isn't necessary at all; that's my point.

 

[Eli Chaps]

With no disrespect intended at all, Murray Carter has made a lot of money off of selling and promoting videos enticing people to accomplish what he does for a living and spent many years studying. He is very popular, and understandably so, and I think a lot of folks come across his and other folks' videos and think that is the goal they must achieve to consider themselves a bona fide knife sharpener.

Murray Carter also tells folks to go grinding down their primary bevels before their seconday. Sound principle but there's a lot of disillusioned folks walking around with scratched up knives because there's a lot more to it than they think.

Again, in no way am I calling into question his expertise, but he's also trying to make a living. And, there's still the question of how sharp a knife needs to be for each individual. I maintain that it's easy for new sharpeners to get overwhelmed and intimidated and that is the worst possible outcome. Far too much value is given to these extreme edges if you ask me.

Stan Wilson is a living legend and uses a 220 grit belt sander to sharpening his kitchen knife.

 

[bgentry]

With no disrespect intended at all, Murray Carter has made a lot of money off of selling and promoting videos enticing people to accomplish what he does for a living and spent many years studying.

I have no idea how much money Carter has made from his videos, but I suspect it's not a real fortune. Seems more like something that he's really committed to doing and sharing with the world. I've found a lot of value in what I've learned from him. Just my opinion.

I maintain that it's easy for new sharpeners to get overwhelmed and intimidated and that is the worst possible outcome.

I totally agree with that sentiment! In the spirit of that, I suppose that me responding about Carter, twice now, really isn't helping the OP at all to solve his problem. Sorry about that.

Brian.

 

[bucketstove]

I actually KNOW my hands are different in terms of when fingertips turn white under some exerted pressure...

So they change color when you press them yes?
2 finger how many pounds/ounces?

It's not difficult knowing ... isn't necessary at all; that's my point.

Heh
Do you own a scale?
If you own a scale, will you pretty please with sugar on top, go ahead and make some measurements and share them here?
It wont take long

 

[Twinecutter]

If you are getting a sharp result on the coarse, you are apexing the edge. If you are losing your edge when progressing to finer stones, you need to look at your angle. Make sure you get your Burr and remove it. Once you do, use lighter pressure to refine it. Otherwise you are destroying the knife and stone. Hope this helps.