finest strop compound

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fisher2

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Oct 28, 2014
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I was wondering if anybody knew how fine grit compound sticks are avalible? i have a .5 micron from strop man but it leaves a little bit of scratches on edge and i want to get rid of that as much as possible. is there a .1 micron compound stick.
 
Assuming your .5µ compound is actually that fine, it shouldn't leave visible scratches (seen by naked eye) by itself. If the compound is actually making visible scratches on it's own, it certainly is coarser than advertised, or includes bulkier impurities (this is common in stick compounds anyway). More than likely, the scratches you're seeing on your edge are left over from coarser sharpening steps. Going to a finer compound won't help in removing them. Instead, work on narrowing the jumps in grit from the beginning. The greater effect will come from the stone work; if the gaps in grit between stones are too wide, stropping likely won't fix the scratch patterns left by the stones. This is almost always why visible scratches will be left on the bevels, as they're usually an artifact of incomplete refinement on the stones, and much too coarse to remove with very fine compound on a leather strop.


David
 
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What David said ^

Most of the stick compounds are garbage , particle agglomeration , large particles , impurities , blended abrasive types.

With a good 0.5u finish , done with a quality compound/stone , you should not have any visible scratches. I would simply just skip all the bar type compounds , and look at stuff that is specifically made for strops.

My first question is what are you leading into the strop with? You will need a tight progression up to at least a 15k stone , before moving on to a 30k strop. If you already have that covered , then what kind of steels are you dealing with?

If its a simple steel without any vanadium look at something like this
http://www.jendeindustries.com/prod...217-boron-carbide-emulsions-from-ken-Schwartz

If your dealing with harder , more abrasion resistant steels consider something more along these lines
http://www.jendeindustries.com/prod...s/product/198-cbn-emulsions-from-ken-Schwartz
or for a more cost effective solution
http://www.jendeindustries.com/prod...-emulsions/product/218-mono-diamond-emulsions

I have compounds from as coarse as 80u (160 grit) down all the way 0.015u(1.2million grit)
 
alright, i'll go back to the super fine stones and work at getting every scratch gone, my max grit is 2000 on a stone so will that be plenty?
 
Just to reiterate.
Sadden said:
You will need a tight progression up to at least a 15k stone , before moving on to a 30k strop. If you already have that covered , then what kind of steels are you dealing with?
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You can substitute some stones for some equally fine strops. For example , you have a 2k stone right now , you could either add a 4-5k stone , or a 4u compounds such as boron carbide or CBN , followed by 2u and so on.

A 2k stone is good , but you need to be setting yourself up for a mirror much sooner than 2k. So walk me through your entire progression and lets go from there.
 
i use the lansky system, i was using fairly light pressure on the stone, but its possible i didnt spend long enough going from the coarser stones to finer stones and lined myself up for failure there, i'l go back to 1000 grit and start my way back up, i hit it again with the 2000 grit and the scratches are much more fine so maybe if i just go and do 5-6 passes with light pressure then 10 with just weight of stone i can get them all gone.
 
fisher2 said:
i use the lansky system, i was using fairly light pressure on the stone, but its possible i didnt spend long enough going from the coarser stones to finer stones and lined myself up for failure there, i'l go back to 1000 grit and start my way back up, i hit it again with the 2000 grit and the scratches are much more fine so maybe if i just go and do 5-6 passes with light pressure then 10 with just weight of stone i can get them all gone.
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If the work done in the prior coarse/medium/fine steps was good, the 1000 UF (white ceramic in yellow holder) should produce very nearly a mirror, by naked eye. I used both Lansky Deluxe and diamond kits quite a lot, and almost always finished up through the 1000 hone. Very easy to miss a few coarse scratches left in earlier steps, and the 600 & 1000 finishing hones will make those coarser scratches really stand out against the mirrored finish, if they were missed earlier (I've done it too many times). The mirror produced by the 1000 will be somewhat better if you use the hone with some water. If used dry, sometimes the swarf or other particles will get trapped between hone and blade, and those particles might make some scratches by themselves.


David
 
fisher2 said:
alright, i'll go back to the super fine stones and work at getting every scratch gone, my max grit is 2000 on a stone so will that be plenty?
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If using a Western grit scale, 2k could be the equivalent of 8k JIS (waterstone designations) and that should be enough to reach a bright finish with just a hint of haze. 1/2 micron compound on a nice piece of leather should make for very near a mirror finish. There is also a Linde "A" that is Aluminum Oxide .25 micron and available at many lapidary outlets.

The Formax microhoning compound at Woodcrafters is 1/2 micron and very uniform and consistent.

If your steel is high carbide, you'll want to go with a tougher mineral - diamond or CBN. The 3M diamond lapping films in 6" sizes can be had for about 6 bucks a sheet and IMHO do a much nicer job on high Vandium carbide steels than a comparable compound on leather or paper etc. The 1 micron on harder steels will make a near mirror, the .5 micron will be a very bright finish. On softer steels these diamond films can make a slightly more pronounced finish, so for "regular" steels, Aluminum Oxide or Chromium Oxide is a better choice.

Work the fine stone as much as possible and then strop with the fine compound, followed by plain leather.
 
they're super fine scratches only visible when the light hits them but i still want them gone
 
" is there a .1 micron compound stick. "

There is now. It contains high concentrations of diamond, so it will work on abrasion resistant steels. It is available in grit sizes from 0.1 micron up to 80 microns.

As has already been mentioned compounds that are not precisely graded will have particles outside a specified range that will leave stray scratches. Harder abrasives like CBN and diamond THAT are precisely graded don't do this leaving a uniform finish. So for instance Chromium oxide green compound bars (which also contain aluminum oxide quite often too) are not precisely graded at all so even at a finer specified grit like half micron don't give a true half micron finish. Even Aluminum oxide based preparations are not as finely graded as a good CBN or diamond based preparation.

Now to get 'just' a mirror finish please look at the finish on this knife. The steel on this knife is not particularly hard so with an abrasive like the high concentration diamond bars, you get a very consistent mirror finish without stray scratches. This finish was obtained using a 2 micron diamond bar. This is more consistent than many green bars out there so note the absence of stray scratches.

10662047_810989255618140_4059120652174878902_o.jpg

---
Ken
 
I have been interested in trying stick compounds. This answers some of my own questions. Thanks for the information guys.
 
My own experience with many of the block compounds is not in line with a lot of the comments in this thread. Only the larger grit tends to have a range of smaller particles. Many of the stick compounds made for bright finish that I have examined up close have a surprisingly tight size distribution.

Not all compounds are made for a uniform polish, especially ones intended for honing - many deliberately will have a range of grit size for performance reasons. Most of the ones made for cosmetic polishing are generally well constructed and quite uniform. Of course you get what you pay for, a $2 bar is not going to work as well as a $7 dollar bar.

IMHO it is the binder and how the compound is being applied specifically that will lead to the largest variation in performance.
 
Ken, it seems that (just like other bar compounds really) those diamond stick compounds are intended for buffing wheels. I assume it would be very difficult to apply them on a leather/denim/paper strop (again, similiar problem with other compound sticks)? Diamond sprays and CBN emulsions etc, are available but sometimes a "stick" is more convenient. Any experience with that?

Thanks, Andy
 
I find sticks to be far less convienent than any quality compound. One simple spritz and you have a nice even coating of abrasive , vs. fiddling with a lighter or oil or whatever people are doing to try and get sticks to try and spread evenly on a hand strop nowadays.

The diamond bars aren't really marketed / designed for joe blow to pick up a couple and occasionally strop his knives with ,asides from cost , the bars just are not designed to be spread by hand on a strop. That's what Ken has other compounds for products that he has spent a good deal of time refining into a quality product designed for performance and ease of use on a handheld application. The diamond bars are designed with knifemakers in mind. Guys like Farid , Phil Wilson and Dan Keffeler , knifemakers who play with exotic steels that have high levels of abrasion resistance and need some oomph for finishing large sections of blade and/or many blades in short order. Also they typically tend to have the shop/equipment to properly use these.

[video=youtube;_3-nuwwPtpg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3-nuwwPtpg&list=UUs9f3v8paL3vc9kV3qrXTuQ[/video]

Available in a range from 80u all the way down to 0.1u microns.
 
I've noticed the bar compounds I've used (from Ryobi & Sears) are much easier to apply on a denim/fabric strop. The fabric 'scrubs' the compound from the stick much more agressively, and holds it very well, which contrasts with trying to do the same on a leather strop. I had previously sanded my leather strops, to get them to accept the bar compound a bit more easily; but with use, the surface smooths out again, and needs some re-sanding when re-applying fresh compound.

The bonus with fabric/denim is, I've also liked how these strops have perfomed on my edges, which I assume is due in part to it's ability to better hold the compound, at least, if not due to other factors as well (such as reduced compressibility & firmness on a hard backing). They work a LOT more aggressively with a given compound, than anything I've seen on leather. I stopped being concerned about burrs completely, after switching to fabric strops on hard backing.

I'm tinkering with some of my older leather-on-oak strops this morning, a couple of which I cleaned up a while back and they've currently no compound on them. As bare-leather strops in this state, I'm beginning to like them more without compound, AFTER using my denim strop with compound. Just the little bit of additional burnishing afforded by the bare leather seems to add just a little more silky pop to edges (I'm testing by slicing phonebook pages), after using compound on the other strop.


David
 
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Obsessed with Edges said:
I've noticed the bar compounds I've used (from Ryobi & Sears) are much easier to apply on a denim/fabric strop. The fabric 'scrubs' the compound from the stick much more agressively, and holds it very well, which contrasts with trying to do the same on a leather strop. I had previously sanded my leather strops, to get them to accept the bar compound a bit more easily; but with use, the surface smooths out again, and needs some re-sanding when re-applying fresh compound.

The bonus with fabric/denim is, I've also liked how these strops have perfomed on my edges, which I assume is due in part to it's ability to better hold the compound, at least, if not due to other factors as well (such as reduced compressibility & firmness on a hard backing). They work a LOT more aggressively with a given compound, than anything I've seen on leather. I stopped being concerned about burrs completely, after switching to fabric strops on hard backing.

I'm tinkering with some of my older leather-on-oak strops this morning, a couple of which I cleaned up a while back and they've currently no compound on them. As bare-leather strops in this state, I'm beginning to like them more without compound, AFTER using my denim strop with compound. Just the little bit of additional burnishing afforded by the bare leather seems to add just a little more silky pop to edges (I'm testing by slicing phonebook pages), after using compound on the other strop.


David
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The above is very similar to my sentiments but with the compound applied to paper. The paste honing compounds actually do not perform as well on paper as they do on leather in my experience, so the bar/block types are preferable - if they need to be tamed for steel type or cosmetic advantage, a drop or two of mineral oil is all that is needed.

Used with paper over a Washboard or on the coarse side of a stone, the hard block compounds actually act to compress the paper even more. Between the binder infiltrating the fibers, and the added force of the harder blocks when being applied, the surface is very flat and dense compared to the leather strops I've owned. The stuff I make for use with my kit is so hard it doesn't even really attract dust or dirt - if it does get 'contaminated' it be cleaned off by simply brushing at it.
Not giving up much going from a soft waterstone to that sort of strop, but is a different application compared to the usual leather strop - a few light swipes at the end of a fine stone.
 
Obsessed with Edges said:
I've noticed the bar compounds I've used (from Ryobi & Sears) are much easier to apply on a denim/fabric strop. The fabric 'scrubs' the compound from the stick much more agressively, and holds it very well, which contrasts with trying to do the same on a leather strop. I had previously sanded my leather strops, to get them to accept the bar compound a bit more easily; but with use, the surface smooths out again, and needs some re-sanding when re-applying fresh compound.

The bonus with fabric/denim is, I've also liked how these strops have perfomed on my edges, which I assume is due in part to it's ability to better hold the compound, at least, if not due to other factors as well (such as reduced compressibility & firmness on a hard backing). They work a LOT more aggressively with a given compound, than anything I've seen on leather. I stopped being concerned about burrs completely, after switching to fabric strops on hard backing.

I'm tinkering with some of my older leather-on-oak strops this morning, a couple of which I cleaned up a while back and they've currently no compound on them. As bare-leather strops in this state, I'm beginning to like them more without compound, AFTER using my denim strop with compound. Just the little bit of additional burnishing afforded by the bare leather seems to add just a little more silky pop to edges (I'm testing by slicing phonebook pages), after using compound on the other strop.


David
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HeavyHanded said:
The above is very similar to my sentiments but with the compound applied to paper. The paste honing compounds actually do not perform as well on paper as they do on leather in my experience, so the bar/block types are preferable - if they need to be tamed for steel type or cosmetic advantage, a drop or two of mineral oil is all that is needed.

Used with paper over a Washboard or on the coarse side of a stone, the hard block compounds actually act to compress the paper even more. Between the binder infiltrating the fibers, and the added force of the harder blocks when being applied, the surface is very flat and dense compared to the leather strops I've owned. The stuff I make for use with my kit is so hard it doesn't even really attract dust or dirt - if it does get 'contaminated' it be cleaned off by simply brushing at it.
Not giving up much going from a soft waterstone to that sort of strop, but is a different application compared to the usual leather strop - a few light swipes at the end of a fine stone.
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2nd that, the crayon compounds are much easier to apply to paper and denim, balsa works ok too with little pressure and some time spent. I have not tried Bass wood yet.
 
For coarser grits, denim seems to work well - both as flat strops and as denim buffing wheels. The diamond bars are designed primarily for high speed applications where holding on to the10" wheel at 3600 RPM is a key requirement. For other applications (pardon the pun) I find the emulsions ideal. They spread far easier than bars. It isn't necessary to 'cake' on a bunch of the emulsions - a thin coat will do as the abrasive content is quite high. Some have used the coarser diamond bars on sisal wheels but the most universal wheels are cotton buffs. Although I did not design the diamond bars with this in mind, some report it working well on paper wheels. I prefer the sewn buffs as they hold their shape well and allow you to apply more pressure. For leather - both powered and bench strops, the emulsion formulation is ideal - uniform coat easily applied and ready to use almost immediately.

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Ken
 
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