Fire by Friction via Fire bow - It's not working

M

mccuistion

Joined
Oct 21, 2004
Messages
13
Hi, I need a clue.

I'm working on figuring out how to do Fire by Friction, using the Fire Bow method. After reading up a lot, I decided I could use a Ceder fire board, which I promptly purchased at Home Depot. While there, I got some wooden dowels of various sizes (1/2 - 1/4 inch) and wood (Oak and 'Hardwood', which is softer that the Oak).

Since I needed to make sure I've got the right tools and techniques, I figured I'd use some assistance: I ran my spindle with my power drill!

I get lots of white smoke no problem. I get black, fairly fine charcoal gathering up in the notch.

But I'm not getting any coals!!! :mad:

Can I get a clue, or guidance, or suggestions, please. I'll even accept 'User Error'. Maybe my notch is no good. Maybe my wood is not right. Maybe maybe maybe.

Help Please. Thanks,

--Mark

Here's what my stuff looks like:
cederboard.jpg
 
From the picture, it looks like the notch is not deep enough. It needs to be just a hair past center. Also, you won't get a coal unless the notch is full of powder. What are the doll rods made of? Good luck.
 
One of the spindles are made of Oak, the others something labled 'Hardwood'. I got them at Home Depot. The 'Hardwood' is some kind of wood softer than oak, though.

OK about getting the notch further into the circle. As you can see, I've been trying various angles to see if that's a problem. I'll try cutting further into the circle tonight.

I'm definitively getting warmth; just no embers.
 
Its the dowels. For some reason or another, they ust don't work. Might also be they they're hard wood, as I never had any luck with hard wood in getting coals.
Then again, the dowels may have been treated in some way.

Try using cedar on cedar.
 
Maybe u should try to fill the already hot hole with light combustible material like fine bark, or sawdust. The friction creates the heat, but u need flamable material and oxigene. So when it's smoking take away the bow put lightly combustible material in and lightly blow. I don't think just the friction is enough to make the wooden board go on fire.
 
You may not see the coal. The first few times I tried, all I got was smoke and no visible coal. If you see a good amount of smoke and get a good pile of char, try transfering it to to your tinder nest, fold it like a taco and blow. If it starts to glow, blow more.

Good luck,

S.
 
some cedar is treated with fire retardant chemicals, make sure that is not your problem, your spindle should be made from cedar also, the hard wood and oak have not been the best spindles in my experience.

split off a portion of your cedar plank, and round the tip with a knife to make the spindle and see if this helps, also you can try putting a small piece of cedar in an electric drill, and spinning it that way to check out if it will work.'

alex
 
As already mentioned, try cedar on cedar, or at least screw the hard spindles and get something softer. You're drilling your spindle through your board, as I see it, thus too much making new powder every second to get it to reach ignition point.

Another option: once you've got your notch filled with black dust, lighten the pressure by 30-40% and speed-up the friction. That might work as well...

Yet another option: make your spindle bigger. That will translate into less PSI and more speed just the same.

I strongly, yet respectfully, suggest that you quit using the power drill and learn the real stuff ;)

Cheers,

David
 
david,
iin the past i have used the electric drill to test different wood types, as i am not as young as i used to be doing the bow drill for several hours is not in my repatoire any more. it is a quick way of findingf out if the new types of wood that i have brought home will work, and has added to my knowledge base with much less lower back pain. but once the wood types are proven then i have found that testing to see the effort per wood is needed then the bow comes out.

mcquiston,
are you starting to get the message that not just any wood will give you friction fire easily, i have found that cedar, sassafras, cotton wood, native willows ( definately not weeping willow) have worked for me in the east, where are you living? so we can give you some hints as to which materials would work well, also stop over at hoods woods forum there are a couple of folks there that really have done a lot of work with the bow and hand drill and they will give you great help, they helped me a lot when i started to learn friction fire methods, and keep trying ti took me quite a while of off and on trying till i got my first fire..

alex
 
You have to have a fine powder buildup next to the notch in order to get a coal.The spindle is generating heat to the fine powder not actually making the coal.The best wood I have found to work is dried Yucca stems.Can be found basically all over the US especially at old homestead sites.Use Yucca stem on yucca stem,just whittle a level spot,notch and indent a small hole.Paw,paw tree stems work good as well.Hardwood does not work good.Most important part to learning this skill is learning to use materials native to the area you are in.The principal is sound but materials are the big thing.Also an important overlooked practice that took me a long time to master is blowing your coal in the tinder bundle.A good tip is to practice with cigarette cherries knocked off the end of a burning cigarette.Practice blowing your coal first because you dont want to lose your first coal and start all over.
 
First time posting here, never know there was a "wilderness & Survival Skills" section on bladeforums...

As you may have gathered by the name I am (was) the webmaster for Imperial Schrade Corp.

Now, onto the fire by friction.

FWIW, Two things.

There is one thing that jumps out at me immediatly.
You are shining off the end. If you notice in the photo, the boring surface of the spindle and the holes themselves are shiny. This causes a DRASTIC loss of both heat and powder production. What I would recommend is that you take your handy knife and gouge small grooves in the holes to abrade them, and then scrape down the end of the spindle until it is no longer shiny.

Also, In my humble experience: the shininess is most often caused by not having enough downward force once heat is achieved. As much as it sucks, once it starts to get hot, you gotta increase both the speed and the downward force.

Good luck! :)
--SchradeWebGuy
 
Alex,

I understand very well :)

I'm not that young anymore either, and, as someone else mentioned in another forum, my axe gets sharper and sharper, and the pack gets lighter and lighter as well ;)

I think the power drill is a great way to test your woods and carving configurations painlessly. As I didn't know how much experience you had under your belt as far as using the bow drill goes, I still mentioned learning the real stuff so that the young bucks don't come to the conclusion that if it works with the power drill at home they will be able to do it with a bow drill in the bush.

Cheers,

David
 
marsupial said:
You have to have a fine powder buildup next to the notch in order to get a coal.The spindle is generating heat to the fine powder not actually making the coal.The best wood I have found to work is dried Yucca stems.Can be found basically all over the US especially at old homestead sites.Use Yucca stem on yucca stem,just whittle a level spot,notch and indent a small hole.Paw,paw tree stems work good as well.Hardwood does not work good.Most important part to learning this skill is learning to use materials native to the area you are in.The principal is sound but materials are the big thing.Also an important overlooked practice that took me a long time to master is blowing your coal in the tinder bundle.A good tip is to practice with cigarette cherries knocked off the end of a burning cigarette.Practice blowing your coal first because you dont want to lose your first coal and start all over.
Click to expand...
Marsupial,

Agreed for the ember to flame part. It also requires practice.

Making the tinder bundle right is extremely important, too. You need to put your ember into a really fine, fluffy bed. My favourite stuff for that is crushed juniper or cedar bark. Works marvels.

Cheers,

David
 
I've had good luck with poplar. Oak is legendary for being bad for this application.

Lot's of info on this topic is available at www.BritishBushcraft.com. Use "search" function there (and here).

I have also heard recommendations for willow, ash, alder, and sycamore.
 
Thank you all so very kindly for your wonderful council and advice!

I stopped using the electric drill right away!

I cut off a square of ceder and whittled it to a dowel.

I forged a Fire bow out of a green branch from the back yard.

It was pretty fun bowing away. Unfortunately, I still don't have the correct technique. But now I paying much more attention to my notch, my powder build-up and retention in notch.

Think I'll try and find some willow or other recommended wood-types.

I'm patient and methodical, so this nut will crack for me!

Again, thanks for your gentle suggestions. I knew posting the picture of my failures would allow you experts to spot clues to help.


Oh, I'm in Ohio, which is considered by many to be Mid-West. As a California boy, I think Ohio is almost East Coast, but you have to be contigious with the Atlantic seaboard to be considered an East Coast state. I think they out here begrudingly accept PA, but privately think it's a Mid-west state, too.

--Mark
 
Find someone to show you how it's done. Once you see it first hand and explained, it will all become clear.

Good luck and keep at it,

S.
 
i would use 550 cord twisted double for the cord, and keep trying, if you have wood that is good for the job, then you will get the technique over time, dont get discouraged and if you get to where you feel you are not getting there then come back for some encouragement. there are a couple more tricks to this ron hoods first video was helpfull for me as it is about starting fire including friction fire methods.

alex
 
You want your fire board and spindle to be made from the same wood. For a bow drill your spindle should be about the same diameter as the thickness of your fire board, 1/2" to 3/4". Hand drills are much smaller. The notch should be cut to a sharp point that ends in the center if the hole with straight walls. Don't turn the spindle with a drill, it's the back and forth motion that helps fill the notch with dust. Now, heres the hard part, once you get smoke, (with cedar you will get it pretty quick) and you think you have gone long enough turn that drill twice as long. Most people fail because they see smoke, they get tired and they think they have turned the drill long enough. Well it's not enough, Remember, the second you stop turning the spindle you start losing heat. Now, the next thing, you have to be very careful when you pull the fire board away from the dust pile, you have to keep that pile in tact. If you do get a coal going and you brake it apart when you remove the fire board it goes out almost instantly and some times it will look like you never had a coal even though you did. Now all that said, take your time, keep trying and when you think you've turned that spindle long enough, turn it twice as long.
Hope this helps.

Ric
 
For practice when I learned I used Jute as a tinder.

It is really cheap, easy to get, seperates into fine strands readily, and forms the perfect pillowy bundle very quickly.

Once you got that then definately experiment with various other things i.e. barks, grasses, leaves, etc.
 
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