First broken blade (heat treat)

Patrice Lemée;8964377 said:
Flash Point for P50 is 280 deg F.
Working range is 50-120 deg F. :confused:
I Could not find info about smoke point.

Wow! That's a pretty low flash point... about 138 degrees C

I guess it wouldn't help much trying to do an interupted quench. For an interupted quench you may well have been better off with the veggy oil.

Here's a conversion tool for Fahrenheit to Celsius:
http://www.wbuf.noaa.gov/tempfc.htm

As a side note, the smoke points Rick posted can vary a bit naturally and different sources for them list them a bit different as well. They aren't exact, but close enough.

http://www.goodeatsfanpage.com/CollectedInfo/OilSmokePoints.htm

http://www.cookingforengineers.com/article/50/Smoke-Points-of-Various-Fats

http://www.care2.com/greenliving/smoke-point-for-cooking-oils.html
 
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To make one additional point for a newbie to take from this thread......
Kevin uses salt pots and controlled ovens. He has great experience with long hot blades and straightening them. He can slip on and off a pair of HT gloves with a shake of his hand.He knows just where and how hard to bend a blade to straighten a warp or bend. I would suspect LRB and Tai can do it in their sleep,too. How did they attain this super-skill? Experience - doing it on hundreds (maybe thousands?) of blades. The fact that they have gained this skill is commendable, and their experience is good information to study.......but new makers should not expect to have their first attempts at straightening in this fashion go as smoothly. Many knifemaking skills are second nature to old timers, and seem impossible to new makers. It will take time to gain the eye-hand-brain connection to know when to bend and when not to. Until then, going heavy on the safer side is good practice.

LOL

Stacy, I actually learned how to do an interrupted quench without even knowing what I was doing. I didn't learn what it was "called" until years after I started the practice. It started with air hardening steels, which I just straightened before they completely cooled. Then I just took the same idea and did it with an oil quench. The only real difference is there's less time with the oil quench. It's really not that hard to do. If you get a quenching medium with a smoke point were you want it, it makes it much easier. I guess that's another thing I just stumbled unto by accident or luck, whatever you want to call it. It's like so many other things.

I've done hundreds of blades that way with great results, only snaped a few,... but on those I knew I was pushing my luck and they were too cool.
 
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Thank you Stacy for reminding us of another common disconnect in communicating knifemaking methods, techniques and skills. I kind of call it the hammer-in syndrome, i.e. in less than a hours time a very highly skilled and experienced person demonstrates to a group of beginners what took them years of experience to be able to demonstrate it an hours time. These demonstrations often end with something like “…and that’s all there is to it!” without any emphasis on the fact that the demonstrator has been doing it for 20 years. Hammer-ins are great to dip ones toe in the water to see if this is going to be their thing but it is far from a swimming lesson that will allow you to dive in and swim without drowning, and the guys they like to get for hammer-ins will make it look deceptively easy.

I do use salt baths and controllers and that will account for being able to work O1/L6 for eight minutes after the interrupt, but I do practice the timed interrupted quench regularly with even coal forges. I just got my advance copy of 3 new ABS DVD's of my forging grinding and heat treating lectures at Troy Ohio and in heat treating I do a marquench using a coal forge and a clayed blade (a very rare demonstration from me)*. I feel safe mentiong the DVD's here because I don’t get a dime; all proceeds go to the ABS.

That being said, marquenching techniques are advanced methods of heat treating and people really do need to walk before they run, and it takes even more skill to pull it off just right without the specialized equipment. Particularly in this case where there are heavy smoking issues with the oil, it is really best to get everything hot under the surface and keep it there until it is cool. Then temper the blade normally and see if you can straighten any kinks by heating the spine with a torch while keeping the edge cold with a wet cloth or cerawool and pushing it straight.

*I really need to stress that applying clay to blades is not a standard part of heat treating and has been one of the greatest sources of miscommunication over the years. People using clay need to realize that unless the advice specifically mentions clay it is assumed that it is just steel being heated and quenched, and if you are using clay you need to mention this to the guy you are requesting advice from. For example, in that DVD I mentioned, you will see large volumes of smoke from the oil because that is what clay does, it takes up the oil like a sponge and holds heat to no end and thus produces 5 times the amount of smoke. I even get a brief flash at one point because my tongs are hot and the vapors are heavy, I never get flashing on bare blades and overheated tongs should be the only possible source for surface smoking if you are not doing an interrupt.
 
I don't think it's a difficult technique for newbies to put into practice, but maybe you guys are right. Everyone is different I suppose... different skills, different backgrounds etc.

I've taught the technique to a lot of nebiews who have done fine with it, but I guess it's one of those things that's very different in person than over the internet.
 
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Patrice, I take back what I said about flaming being too hot. In your case with the low flash point, your "flaming blade" might have been too cool! That’s probably why it snapped. LOL

As for the smoke point, of course it would be lower than the flash point... somewhere between the 120 and the 280.

I don't think the Parks #50 is going to be the ideal medium for doing interrupted quenches.
 
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I see this thread continuing, so folks certainly have an interest in it. I'm not trying to criticize anyone, but it may have missed a basic point about working with Parks 50. Not that I'm any sort of expert, though I do use P-50 for interrupted quenching of 1084 on a regular basis.

Park's stipulated working range for P-50 is 50-120 degrees F, as noted by Patrice in one post on this thread. His initial post stated that he quenched his blade into P-50 "at about 130." I'm assuming he pre-heated the oil to that point, probably because "folks say to pre-heat your oil."

In the case of Parks 50, pre-heating the oil to 130F means you've already exceeded the manufacturer's recommended working range, before you plunge a red hot blade into the oil.

Various questions about smoking, flaming, suitability, etc., may be mis-leading unless we refer back to correct basic information about working with certain materials like quenching oils.

John
 
Patrice,

(I should be welding damascus right now. I'm stalling)

Parks AAA has a working range of 100-180F, so folks who use it to quench 5160 or O-1 will probably need to pre-heat it in most climates! On the internet, or in casual talk, you'll hear, therefore, "Pre-heat your oil to ..." P-50 is a different animal, suited to shallow-hardening steels like 1084, W-2 , and 1095, and just requires a note to it's different characteristics.

I'm always finding new ways to mess up, but being particular about some basic information helps reduce my mess-up range.

John
 
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