First day with a strop! Pretty disappointing :(

I'll bite this hook - after seeing this quote/bait a few time. First of all, I deeply respect Dr Verhoeven's research. However in this case, his minor conclusion solely based on mismatched comparison between Cr2O3 0.5um and silicates at 0.05um-0.005um (50nm-5nm) was very odd in the realm of scientific discipline. Other factors were omitted: abrasive shape; abrasive progression( jumped from 4um to submicron or nano range was just large or ridiculously huge); etc..

Luckily there is an easy to test/feel the difference between edge with & without strop on bare leather. Facial hair shave with a straight razor (or a good knife) half side of the face where edge stropped with Cr2O3, then strop that edge with bare leather, proceed to shave the second half. Also with a super hi-res SCEM, we should able to see a delta between the 2 edges.

Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of things in his study that I don't agree with, but I'm not sure I understand the bolded point. Reading the study I was under the impression he used the same polishing compound throughout the whole study. Are you saying that he didn't? Or are you saying that the polishing compound was larger than the abrasives in the stones?

The compound used here is called Micro
Fine Honing Compound supplied in the form of a wax impregnated bar having a deep
green color. The abrasive contained in the wax bar is a 0.5 micron size chromium oxide.
Unless other wise stated this was the honing compound used on the subsequent
experiments described here

Can you explain your point of contention with his study to me like I'm five?
 
Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of things in his study that I don't agree with, but I'm not sure I understand the bolded point. Reading the study I was under the impression he used the same polishing compound throughout the whole study. Are you saying that he didn't? Or are you saying that the polishing compound was larger than the abrasives in the stones?
Can you explain your point of contention with his study to me like I'm five?

What I meant was, not much conclusion can be drawn from experiments using mismatched sizes between Chromium Oxide vs Silicate, a 500nm vs 5nm respectively.
 
What I meant was, not much conclusion can be drawn from experiments using mismatched sizes between Chromium Oxide vs Silicate, a 500nm vs 5nm respectively.

Can you point out the location in the study, or quote the text where you're making this conclusion from? Isn't he simply comparing the size of the abrasive grooves after being stropped on plain leather to the abrasive grooves after being stropped on loaded leather, stating that there was almost no change? Compare Fig. 23 to Fig. 24, and Fig 25 to Fig 26 and see that there is a remarkable difference in the edges. The only difference between the two in sharpening procedures was that Fig 23 was sharpened from #1000 to #6000, and then stropped on a clean leather strop, while Fig 25 was sharpened from #600 to #6000, and then stropped on a chromium oxide loaded leather strop. (Which I admit, is a little odd why there wasn't consistency between these two methods...)

The abrasive grooves along the faces appear to
be little affected by the action of the stropping. This result is typical of what was found
on additional experiments using the second clean leather strop described above.
 
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We all know the CrO is sharper & harder than silicate. CrO abrade, Silicate probably burnish more than abrading. When the study is:

1) a surface (i.e. blade or bevel face), I expect the experimenter to apply the same amount of abrading force taken abrasize size into account. I didn't see any where that there were 10x or 100x number of strokes when strop on silicate/bare leather. e.g. 7 strokes on CrO, thus should be 70 to 700 strokes on silicate. Plus many other factors mentioned by Obsessed.

2) apex (i.e. actual cutting edge). Thin steel (ductility, hardness, etc..) interact/respond differently than a surface, again many factors come to play of which weren't covered by the experiment.

Sharpening area is quite vast and open-ended, so the good Dr. did a great job documented many findings but there are alot more to investigate & learn. Just like my contention points are far from complete but merely trying to point out the incompleteness of the Dr. V study.

Edit: Sorry OP.... I am done side-tracking
 
Sharpie trick might show you a thing or two...

I see the sharpie trick mentioned here all the time. I guess it's time that I gave it a shot. It should improve my technique on the SM as well.

Try it without any compounds. I just use bare leather and it works great.

Not to sound like an @*%, but are you dragging your blade across the strop (backwards) or in a "slicing" motion?

I'll try to clean the white compound off of one side of the strop and use the bare leather. Yes I am stropping in the correct direction :D

Have you practiced finding your "bite" edge angle. The angle at which the edge wants to start slicing the leather if you are going edge in? (some video's show knuckleheads actually cutting the leather). Don't cut your leather. Simply find that angle at which it wants to bite, and then drag backwards. Be careful to avoide rolling the edge as you take it off the leather. That has the effect of taking the edge back off too.

Tips like this are why I made the thread. I'll try that tonight too :thumbup:
 
Instead of stropping on leather, have you tried attaching newspaper to your Sharpmaker rods? Newspaper is abrasive (I've read that the clay/silica used in the paper/ink is upwards of #16,000), and since it's backed on a flat surface (and the same angle as your edge) you'll be able to refine the edge much easier without fearing you're rolling it.
 
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Stitchawl - coconut shell contains 3 to 5% silicate by weight. It rather difficult to strop on a spherical object but at least its hard surface keep convexing to a minimum. I stropped a few of my knives using coconut shell, was tricky but had about the same result as using horse leather. Coconuts from river delta region contain finer silicate.

ALL living things contain silicates. Silicates start out in the soil in the ground. Plants (with roots that soak up nutrients from the ground) contain the most silicates of all living things. Animals that eat the plants retain a lot of the silicates which is why A) leather works so well for stropping but B) stropping on your own (or someone else's) palm will have an effect too! Certain grasses contain higher concentrations of silicates than others, and animals that eat those grasses have a higher concentration of silicates in their hide. Oats have a higher silicate concentration than garden grass, so animals feed on oats or on oat grasses or hay will have a higher concentration than animals that have grazed the ordinary grasses in the North 40.

It makes perfect sense to me that stropping on a coconut shell would be great! And for those of us who live in areas where we can get fresh green cocounts (rather than the brown shaggy ones in supermarkets) this would be a perfect stropping medium! The larger Thai coconuts have broad 3"-4" flat surfaces on many of them!

How do you feel about this conclusion from Dr. Verhoeven and his sharpening study:

The Verhoeven study was a brilliant work in many ways, but not in all of them. Verhoeven stated that stropping on leather didn't give him any better edge. While you and I may not have the education that Dr. Verhoeven had, nor the tools of his laboratory, you and I both KNOW FROM EXPERIENCE that stropping on bare leather improves the edge. Repeated experiential knowledge with the exact same results performed by hundreds of thousands of people over hundreds of years (knife hobbyists, wood carvers, and most especially... barbers have all PROVED time and time again that Dr. Verhoeven's result was flawed.

However... and this is very important... Stropping a dull knife on bare leather is an exercise in futility unless you are willing to spend several years working at it. YOU MUST START WITH A VERY SHARP EDGE BEFORE YOU STROP ON BARE LEATHER. In that way, the sharp edge can become sharper with just a few strokes on a strop.

We all know the CrO is sharper & harder than silicate. CrO abrade, Silicate probably burnish more than abrading.

Er.... It's important to keep in mind that there are a LOT of DIFFERENT silicates involved here. Some are softer than CrO, but some are harder too. Silicate is just an overall term for a mineral that contain silicon and oxygen. Even Talc is a silicate, just not one that's very effective for our needs in a strop. Quartz, Feldspar, Zirconium, Garnet, Flints,.... all in silicate combination...the list is endless! These are what is getting the work done for us when we strop.


Stitchawl
 
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So I've had a lot of time to think while I was doing all of this sharpening and I had a strange thought that I'm sure/hope I'm wrong about.

If I have to be soooo careful to exert an absolutely minute amount of pressure (LESS than the weight of the knife) because the edge is soooo delicate. Won't it be completely destroyed the second it touches some cardboard/clamshell package, etc ?
 
You use light pressure so you don't round the edge.
 
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