First Framelock Flipper Finally Finished (and some ???)

Varga Knives

Varga Knives

Joined
Aug 12, 2006
Messages
1,302
I have a lot to say and ask, so this might drag on a bit. First folder was finally finished a few weeks ago and I’ve been carrying it around and trying to use it whenever I can to see what works and what doesn’t. So far so good. Thanks to many with their words of encouragement and wisdom.

Specs:

CPM-154 blade, 3 7/8”, .16” thick, full distal taper, acid stonewashed
61-62 Rc by Peter's
4 7/8" x .14” Titanium, bronzed and stonewashed and polished pocket clip out of same
PB washers at .015"
1/16" hardened steel detent ball
G10/Carbon Fiber backspacer
Early vault lockup
Cabidized lockface with silent stick-free unlocking
Centered and zero blade play
.125” hardened steel stop pin, press fit (thanks Daniel Fairly!)

No.2 (washers)…


and No.3 (bearings) almost done…

The beginning… I can’t believe how many drawings, mock-ups and functioning prototypes it took to get to where it is now. I think I started with drawings over a year ago! Every time I thought I was close I felt it was a compromise on something else but I loved puzzling it all out. I went through so many drawings and mock-ups that I thought I would never be happy. The goal was function first and aesthetics second and even if you don’t like the looks I promise it feels great in the hand and can even cut some things when needed. In my opinion, flippers are inherently more difficult due to the relationship between the “triangle” (lock, pivot and stop pin) and how I wanted the design to end up.

Once I was happy and quite some time ago I contacted Mark VanderWest from Leading Edge to have a proto run of framelocks cut and I highly recommend him and his services. I sent him an accurate drawing and an acrylic rendition and he took it from there and did an outstanding job! A poster once wrote on this forum that all you have to do after receiving your framelock parts back from water jet is assemble. Baloney!

What went wrong – Doing things wrong isn’t a big deal to me because I learn more from the mistakes and here are some of them:
 
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(wouldn't let me save as one post)

1) I have a few finished and heat treated blades that I either cut too much out of the lock face or screwed up the detent hole. Those mistake blades are going to be used to test finishes and/or destruction. I now have a better appreciation of how to cut the lock (many trial fittings) and a fool proof detent plan thanks to Ed Caffrey’s old posts.
2) The original intent was for a pivot with a bearing system. I picked up a bunch or large GTC bearing and the tooling to go with it. I pretty much gave up on the first knife attempt with bearings because I just can’t get the pockets perfect with my drill press. No.3 works so well that I think it’s a fluke and I just got lucky (maybe I can figure out a way to attach a video). Each pocket has a variance of about 10 thou around the perimeter and I had some binding at first but the titanium must have sorted itself out. The blades were hardened beforehand so no pockets or even a race in them. Either I find a trick for consistency or No.1 and others will wait until I get a mill. The flip side is that washers are no slouch in performance. This thing (No.2) rockets open in every position with no wrist. The bad is that I have to put a drop of oil in there every week to keep it rocketing. I had an idea to poke some holes in my PB washers to hold oil and then I saw that Chris Reeves already does that! I drilled a ¼” hole into some thick G10 and put a pivot though the washer into the hole and anchored it to my drill press table at a distance to make five .12” holes around the rim of the washer. I had less than stellar results because the washers weren’t perfectly flat after drilling but I figure I could sandwich the washers prior to drilling and I might revisit this down the road, it’s not a priority right now.
3) Standoffs!!! This didn’t end the way I envisioned as I had to go with a backspacer of G10/Carbon Fiber which I had on hand and close to the right thickness. What I had in mind was a 4-40 threaded bushing with OD of 3/16” to fit inside a standoff and run part way into the Ti handles. One problem I had was I couldn’t source the standoff and the other was that 4-40 screw heads may just be a tad too big. A local shop wants $300 for the set-up plus a small fee each to make a run of what I want and I may go that route down the road. I had finished the screw heads down to .20” for this batch but in the future I will try both moving the standoff holes away from the edge a bit and also see how 2-56 screws work out. Many accomplished makers simply screw 2-56’s into a threaded standoff and it seems to work out okay for them. Rather than 4-40 though, if that is the direction I end up going, I would use M3 because I like the higher thread count and may go with a countersunk button head.
4) I finished grinding these blades lengthwise on Nathan’s platen/chiller and taped a strip of thin cardboard on the back of the chiller and draped it over the front. The resultant grind was great but the radius was also greater than I anticipated due to the cardboard and I ended up pushing the plunge line well underneath the front of the scales. Not a disaster and no effect on functionality but something I now am aware of and easily avoidable.
5) I like the pocket clip and I’m very glad I didn’t put a generic flat clip on this one. I did mess up aligning the second hole but it still works fine. I never tapped Ti before but tapping the M3 screws was easier than I thought it would be. I hand turned it on my drill press and had no problems. I might try moving the bottom standoff hole in line with the lockbar cutout and sharing that hole with the clip.
6) Logo and etching need work. Also, rookie mistake made by etching a line at the bottom edge of my stencil!
7) My sharpening isn’t up to where it should be. I never had a problem using my belts on fixed blades but I took off some of the stonewashing at the tip and decided I need to make myself better at hand sharpening.
8) I tried different finishes and techniques not because I thought they would work well together or look good but just to experiment.

First big question, has anyone had consistent success doing bearing pockets on a drill press (especially a 72 year old drill press)? I tried tramming as best I could and then a couple of tricks. One was drilling to the approximate depth with a piloted counter bore and then locking down my quill while revolving the handle to different sides of the table. The other is to shim the shallow side with a piece of tape. Both are ghetto approaches but something must have worked. BTW – I have too much runout for an end mill to work.

I like overbuilt as much as the next guy but to overbuild something just so it is perceived as overbuilt and not serve any real benefit is, I don’t know if this is the exact word, disingenuous to me. In other words, overbuilt should be for something to exceed its intended use and withstand realistic extreme use. In my mind using M3 or 4-40 over a 2-56 may not be worth the design tradeoffs. So my next big question is has anyone ever actually seen a 2-56 screw fail at the standoff/backspacer? I can't imagine a handle seeing enough lateral stress to make a 2-56 fail but I could be wrong. I might just have to experiment.

I think the knife holds well in the hand without jimping but my wife thinks it looks too boring without it. I am on the fence. What do you think? My first attempt at jimping (on No.4) was on the sloppy side but it gave me an idea of how it would look and I do like it.

And last, is the design too generic and boring? I like a knife to have some character but at the same time I have an appreciation for understatement. It has always been hard for me to take a step back and view something I'm close to with a fresh set of eyes.

Did anyone make it all the way though? My hat’s off to you.

more pics:

potential No.4 with temporary hardware


Thanks!
Mark
 
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I read it all and I have to say... nice work! Thanks too...

On the screws I am going to mostly 4-40 for a few reasons - simplicity, selection, relatively "easy" to tap (lol easy to tap... yeah right!) 2-56 is plenty strong though, I'd think even for a hard use knife. I should do a shearing test with scrap and my 3# sledge. :D

I had to look forever to find the 4-40 3/16X3/16 standoffs I am currently using, if I recall correctly they were sourced from MSC.

screws - I think the ones I use have a head diameter of 3/16" but may be wrong... try USAKM

I cracked up on the part about just screwing them together after waterjet! I just throw Ti on a conveyor belt to the Post Office and watch the money roll in! :D

Keep up the great work, all looks good to me. Make more!
 
I think your knives look pretty good stylistically, Is that one example flame colored. I think that would be a cool option...I'm a big fan of symmetrical Ti framelock flippers, if I could afford one of yours, I would love to try one. Best wishes on you making.
 
Daniel Fairly Knives said:
I should do a shearing test with scrap and my 3# sledge. :D
Click to expand...
That would be one short test!

Thanks for the response Dan and thanks too for making it all the way through my post. I'm sure you're the exception not the rule.

If 4-40 screw heads were 3/16" I'd be all over 'em but I think all the ones I got my hands on were somewhere around .22-.23. If you like 4-40, try M3! I think I found M3 screws and matching standoffs from Apex Fasteners but the only torx heads they have are with the pin in. I might have to go with hex. Nothing really wrong with hex but I find them more easy to strip.

My wife thinks the conveyor scenario is the way to go. Why do I actually have to spend time in the shop to get these done?
 
Thanks Fish!!! The one that is disassembled in the pics is orange peeled and flame anodized. The other is electrically anodized.

I'm partial to the orange peel
 
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I to made it all the way through your first two posts. I like the design and was wondering if I could get on the list or one of these fine folders. Jimping on the fourth one looks good and it would be nice to have it on the blade also so when open it lines up with the jimping in the handle. Other then that do you really need the bearings? The Kiss principle is what Daniel is using in his folders and it seems to work good. Keep up the fine work and hope to see the finished model up soon!
 
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I love the looks of them. Especially the one you mentioned might be 'plain' or 'boring'. There is elegance and beauty in simplicity. It has nice lines and a clean look. I love the functional and utilitarian look.

Alot of the modern 'tactical' folders that use multiple grinds, radical blade shapes, single purpose specialty blades and weird sharp angles don't do a thing for me. Neither do handles that lock your hand into one position only. I think folders are used in a lot of non specific grips so in many cases, the smoother and simpler they are, the better.

So I really like it and the workmanship looks really clean and solid.

As for one of your other questions, Bruce 'Bing' Bingenheimer made many flipper folders with bearing pivots using only an old drill press and no mill. They were as precise and smooth as ANY I've handled, and I've handled quite a few. So yes, it can be done.
 
I too would like to get on the list for one of these awesome folders. Love the look of #4 with the jimping and stand offs!
 
Well Varga, I like your knives even more now. And just my .02 Yes, you should go bearings--I have a lot of flipper knives and the ones with bearings are simply more smooth, and flip more consistently, although I have a few that are super-smooth that do have washers, but new knives I buy, bearings are a must for me, I have several folders from Alan Davis, and they run on bearings and I can flick them open with just a backwards flick of my thumbnail against the thumbstud. I like your No. 2, overall shape, blade style and clip (especially like the clip you did), I wouldn't mind some jimping on that one, but as someone else said a lot of beauty is in simplicity. I will re-iterate that I am interested in obtaining one of you knives!

Good going brother!!!
 
The nice words really do mean a lot guys! I can take the critisicm as well so don't be shy.

Thanks John and I really do like your first folder. It could take me a lifetime to get the F&F like on that one.

The plan is to really see what I like and don't like on these and then do a small(ish) batch using what I've learned. One thing I need to make sure of his how it holds up to multiple hard openings. I want to see how it wears as a whole and how the finish lasts. I don't want to put anything out until I think it's ready. I'm hoping a month but that might be optomistic.

As far a the flipper question. It doesn't need one. Simple as that. On the other hand, even though I can open the washer version with an unpracticed ring finger, my friends who don't know how to open a flipper can't seem to get it to work. They basically flip it with the same force and technique as tapping a letter on the keyboard. When I put the bearing version in their hands, however, they can flip it the first time and every time. But they aren't the ones out there using this type of knife and those who do buy it know how to use it so it is really just left for me to be satisfied. I will probably end up doing some of each but only if I can maintain consistency on the pockets.

I'm sure there won't be a need for a list but I really do appreciate the sentiment.
 
It seems I am already over a month behind on my arbitrary schedule but I have been at it whenever I could. First batch of blades should be coming in from Peter's tomorrow so I'll have something to keep me busy this week. The first batch of handles are ready and waiting. I plan on going in a few different directions with the knife (jimping, thumb hole, blade shape, etc) and so far I like them all :). I changed to stand-offs as planned and went to a pocket clip with two vertical screws instead of side by side but all else is still the same. Vesper_zps5570a94d.jpg http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag393/vargaknives/Vesperhandle_zps5c862474.jpg

I still plan on mostly going FFG but I like experimenting.

Thanks for looking!
 
Wow, great job on those flippers (and on the documentation too!) I've only got three-ish knives under my belt (one a liner lock) and I'm in the middle of making 3 more, so my words might not mean as much as the big boys on this forum, but just my 2 cents.

In terms of the looks, I think you did a great job making it clean and elegant, but I think it still really looks like an XM-18 clone. Obviously that shape is very well thought out, but perhaps your knife would stand out some more if you gave it a more distinctive silhouette?

As for the screws, I think you really can't get a more accurate answer than testing to destruction. Having said that, I do think 2-56 will be plenty strong for any reasonable use.

I can definitely empathize about the drill press. I made my liner lock using a $150 Craftsman drill press and trammed it with a $15 dial indicator and a ton of paper shims.

Edit: Sorry, didn't see your most recent picture. I'm really excited to see the whole thing, that asymmetrical thumbhole and upturned tip is really cool!
 
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Put me on the list of you make one! Excellent work, I love seeing your process and problem solving.
 
Peter's did a great job!!


Test fit



The plunge looks a bit screwy but that is just in the pic. Hmm...

Thanks for the comments, guys. I personally don't think it looks like a Hinderer but, like you said, the design process is probably similar to many people and the results may show it.

The bearing issue is pretty much sorted out. I can't exactly pinpoint the resolution but now they just fit together much better. I also haven't put a drop of oil in the one I've been carrying (with washers) around for a few months and it flips great.

My compressor keeps tripping my breaker and the wife was getting kinda sick of that so I bought a second hand but new Makita electric die grinder for $75 and just got in today a router speed controller from Harbor Freight to make it a variable speed. Can't wait to get to orange peelin'!
 
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That looks fantastic! I love how the lines flow in the both the open and closed positions. To me, that sets off a design and just makes everything look so well thought out. Although it isn't too far off from the size of that Dalibor, it looks much more streamlined and I want one just like that, or the one in your first post.
 
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