First go-round with 440C

John Katt

John Katt

Joined
Mar 19, 2012
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Well this has been a long time coming that's for sure, I bought the 440 from aldo over a year ago planning to grind up a couple of knives and have them professionally heat treated, but then I got it into my head that I wanted to do all my own heat treating so I built an oven, which turned out to be a real fun project which came in at $300 plus or minus 20 or 30 I didn't really keep super close count

The whole process came off without a hitch, 15 minute ramp to 1400F plenty of time for the oven to equalize. 10 minute soak, 10 minute ramp to 1900F 30 minute soak, plate quenched, dry ice sub zero for 30 minutes then 2 350 temper cycles at 1 hour each allowed to cool to room temperature in between,

So if the heat treating gods were good to me I should have a pretty decent blade, I don't have a hardness tester but I file tested the whole blade and it seems to skip off all the different areas, you can see some scratches in the first picture

One thing I know for sure is I have definitely out grown my 8 inch wheel the hollow grind on this knife is taller then the circumference of the wheel, hopefully I can grind that out with the next grit, I stopped here with a Norex X100 belt, figured I would fit all the handle parts next which will be a 4 part stainless bolster and pommel (2 each) and a nice piece of curly maple I bought off amazon...well over a year ago...for sure no one can accuse me of rushing into a project ;0)

If anyone has any suggestions on how I might spiffy up this blade a little I sure would like to hear it, even with the swedge it seems a little plain

blade dimentions 3/16 x 5 3/8 x 1 5/8 over all 8 3/8










 
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John, I like it . The knife is going to be nice and the grind looks good to me. I have wheels from 2 inches to 14 inches and I like the 8 inch best for the deep hollow grind that fits my idea of a stylish hunting knife for field dress and skinning. Your knife will certainly be functional and beautiful if the wood looks good as the blade. 440 c can be finished nicely either satin, brushed, or high polish in my opinion. Larry Lehman
 
Thanks Larry

The knife is going to be the replacement for the model 119 buck knife my dad gave me 38 years ago when I was 14, my first white tail season, he's gone now so the knife is getting to be more of a keepsake every year and less and less like something I want to take into the woods with me, I'm always afraid im going to lose it

Below is the drawing I did when I finally figured out what type of knife I wanted to make, each of the four notches In the bolster and pommel will have a triple twist stainless steel wire laid in a channel, I'm still working on an idea to make a mechanical fastener that will pull the wire tight into the channels as I drive it into place, hopefully that doesn't prove to be above my pay grade ;0)

The thin area in between the four stainless pieces will be a black liner material to emulate the buck 119 style

 
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Well I got a couple of hours in on my knife today and managed to get the first of 4 handles pieces done, I was dreading the twisted wire thing but it turned out to be fairly simple.

Started out with a rectangle piece of stainless, drilled 1 hole in the center of the end for the wire to go through, drilled holes for the tang slot, hand filed it to the correct size, cut a grove for the wire using a diamond cut off wheel in my drill press, wrapped the wire around the bolster, put the wire in the hole I drilled, Then pulled the wire through the tang slot with vice grips and drove a brass plug into the hole that I pre split and tapered so it would get tighter and grip the wire as I drove it in

I was thinking about doing this on all four handle pieces but I changed my mind, one looks good and I believe that 4 would be overkill and look silly, kind of like the grill on the wagon queen family truckster from national lampoons family vacation






 
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Got all the parts glued and sanded today, the finger guard area was fun, tiped the rest on my drill press to 180 degrees and used a 3/4 sanding drum, worked great for getting that compound concave radius in there, tomorrow the fun begins, wood work ;0(



 
I think I lost my nerve last night, I stopped grinding when I reached the liner material and decided that was close enough to my original design, This morning however I drank two cups of coffee looked around the house, found my plums and went out and finished grinding the finger guard area and it turned out great, I'm using 4 grits in the four different areas to increase the contrast ranging from 150 grit in the finger guard area to 5x Norex on the chamfered edge at the face of the guard, all that's really left to do is fill the wire channel with translucent black resin to keep out the dirt and grim and its finished






 
Thanks someoldfart

I sure hope I can pull off the wood work, I have a maple burl that I am going to dye black, home stabilize and finish as close to mirror/super smooth finish as I can get, trying emulate the buck 119 knife handle as close as I can
 
Spent a couple hours shaping the handle today and to my surprise everything went well...I just know Murphy's law will come into effect sooner or later, Next up black dye/stain and home brew stabilize, Thinking about doing a test piece with Polyurethane and min-wax wood harder mixed together on a piece of cedar, and see how that goes ;0)

And I got a dirty shop pic in today too ;0)







 
That looks very nice, and I think it will be beautiful when finished. I especially like the different grits for contrast on the guard/bolster area. And please don't be worried, 440C is a fantastic steel with good heat treat. I'm glad you haven't been swayed by all the market hype. Very nice job on all of it. I love it when somebody does it their way, instead of just doing the same thing over and over again.

I would add that to finish the maple, what type of black are you going for? Just dyed black, or are you going for a more ebonized look, or a real deep positive black? There are several options available to you, and all will have their advantages, depending on what look you are going for.

Sam :thumbup:
 
Thanks guys

Sam I want a good solid black with a high gloss finish that makes you feel like you could reach down inside it, 3d might be a good way to say it, but im hoping to retain as much of the pearl effect that I can, with as much contrast between the light and dark as possible, I just ordered a bottle of cactus juice so I was thinking that I would add black pigment to that and hope I get the effect that im looking for, I have pigment that is desinged for epoxy and thermo reactive epoxy resin, not sure how that would work, figured I would experiment with some cedar I have in the shop and see what happens
 
I think I understand what you're going for. I also just reread the part about the Buck 119 handle, and I believe I know what you mean. You chose an excellent wood for it, as maple is a reasonably hard, even-grained, non-oily wood. This is the method I would use myself to get it like the 119 style handle: I would wet the wood with water, just run it under the sink for a second, although distilled is even better, as it won't leave any mineral deposits. Not a huge deal either way. After it dries, take a fresh, sharp piece of 320 or comparable sandpaper, not Scotchbrite or steel wool (they will just push the grain back over), and lightly sand across the grain at a bias. You're just trying to cut off the raised grain, so that it won't raise again.

Then dye it with your dye, preferably an alcohol or water-based dye. Black leather dye works great, as it's essentially the same thing used for wood anyway. This will give a good black foundation. Then I would take some "vinegroon" mixture, (if you're not familiar with this, it's basically just taking a glass jar and filling it with vinegar and a bunch of nails, steel wool, anything iron so that there is a chemical reaction which produces a chemical type dye) and apply this to the wood. Where people often have sub-optimal results with this mixture is when they apply it to a wood like maple, that doesn't naturally have a great deal of tannic acid, or tannin. Sometimes it works great, sometimes not. This can be remedied by applying a weak mixture of tannic acid to the maple. If you opt to go with this method, and the vinegar mixture doesn't turn the wood an even, positive black, let me know, and I will send you some tannic acid in powdered form to use, and tell you how to use it. It is very mild, and nothing to be worried about. But used properly, it will give the deepest, most positive black I have ever seen.

The vinegar mixture will have to be neutralized after it dries, which is best accomplished by just wiping or pouring some household ammonia on the handle till it's thoroughly wet, and then rinsing it out with water again. Do not skip this step.

Then you have a choice: If you want to make it totally black, with no grain, you can take some dewaxed shellac (from hardware store or Home Depot) and put a little of your alcohol dye in it, and wipe a couple of thin coats on the handle. If you want a little of the grain or figure to be visible, skip that step. Personally, I would skip the wood hardener, and just apply the polyurethane or finish of your choice at that point. Poly will tend to be a little more yellow after several years, whereas an acrylic will be a whiter finish. The acrylic will also tend to give more of a pearlescent effect due to the fact that it is an emulsion, rather than a solution of components. Both will be more than durable enough. Make sure you buy gloss, whatever finish you choose, as any other sheen will have flatting agents that can cloud the finish.

Simply wipe or brush the finish on for about three coats for the poly, or a couple more for the acrylic, lightly sanding with 320 in between coats. You don't have to sand much, just enough to get out dust or raised grain. Wipe it down with a paper towel, and put on another coat, till you have as many as you need to fill the grain. It won't take long with maple. After the last coat, let it dry for several days, so that the finish shrinks up. Then sand it till its smooth with 320 or so. You just have to go till finish is smooth, and the little "grain" is gone. Then sand it up to 1000 or 2000, (320, 600, 1000, 2000) and it is ready to buff. That should do it. I may have missed something, but that is basically it.

My apologies for such a long post, and I hope I wasn't telling you things you already knew. If you have any further questions, feel free to ask, and I will do my best to help you.

Sam :thumbup:
 
No need to apoligize I do a great deal of reading every day, your post was very informitive

Is the method you layed out ok to start after I stabilize with cactus juice using black pigment?
 
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I'm unfamiliar with cactus juice and what it does, exactly. So I wouldn't be able to answer that part very well, but in general, you want to get most, if not all of your color work done before you start putting much finish on the wood. This way the stain/dye is protected by several layers of finish, and when you sand you don't run as much risk of burning through and sanding out your color.

As far as using pigments, I doubt that it will help much. Stains are based on pigments, and for them to work, they have to be able to lodge in the grain of the wood. Maple is such a tight grained wood, that stain rarely has much effect on it. It may give you a grayish color, or you may get lucky and it takes some black, but in general, most all of the stain or pigment you put on will wipe back off. Do not make the mistake of trying to use stain as paint, by building it up on the surface of the wood. This can lead to serious adhesion problems later, as well as look blotchy. A lot of guys do this, and think it's ok because they have got away with it plenty of times. But believe me, the one time it gets you, you will be sorry, as your finish will start to peel off the wood easily, and cannot be remedied by anything other than sanding it all off and starting over.

Dyes are the preferred method of coloring maple, unless you want to simply spray paint it black. That will work, but lacks the craftsmanship and class that you are likely looking for.

Sam :thumbup:
 
Im going to say that cactus juice is the same thrmo reactive polymer resin that the pro stabilizers use, and I am really starting to think the only way im going to get the finish I want is to dye the handle first, but I want the dye to go deep into the wood, what im thinking is I will use my vacuum chamber with some water based dye first then use the cactus juice after the handles has dried out

What water based dye would you recomend?
 
That sounds like it would work good. I don't really have any experience doing stabilizing in a vacuum chamber like that, but the good news is that maple is very stable already, so even a decent job would likely be more than sufficient. As far as dye, the best I have ever used, as far as consistency and vibrancy of colors, is W.D. Lockwood, out of New York. I believe they even have a color called Ebony/Black or something like that. The water dyes are extremely simple. About a teaspoon of dyestuff in a cup of warm water, and you're ready to go. Can't recommend them enough.

Sam :thumbup:
 
OK sam this is all on you now, I just ordered 1 container of W.D. Lockwood ebony black water base dye. I hope this goes good ;0)
 
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John Katt said:
OK sam this is all on you now, I just ordered 1 container of ebony black water base dye. I hope this goes good ;0)
Click to expand...

Lol, so it's official now? Don't worry, the dye is great stuff, and won't do you wrong. I look forward to seeing how it comes out, especially the performance of the cactus juice. Make sure to post updates, and feel free to ask if I might be able to help in any way. I'm sure it will turn out great.

Sam :thumbup:
 
John, I've "ebonized" many projects as Sam described. Gun stocks, wooden bike fenders and a keep sake box for mom. The trick is to apply the solution before any other treatment. The process doesn't dye the wood that could be stripped off like a stain, it actually initiates a chemical reaction that permanently blackens to wood. Although maple doesn't have the high tannin acid like an oak, it does have sufficient amounts to get great results. The resulting richness of the black is dependent on the tannin level and the duration the solution is left on the wood. For oak and other high tannin woods, the exposure time is relatively short, you can actually see the chemical reaction take place in seconds. For maple, one would just increase exposure times or reapply until you get the results you want.

Try it out on some scrap and see how you like it, personally I think it's a great way to add depth and even more character to a unique piece. With wood grains such as your burl you could get some excellent results and the great thing is that if your not happy with the results, you can always apply a more uniform colored dye, you can also add a stain to the wood such as a cherry that will result in a burgundy/black grained piece. Then you can stabilize.
I found that the best solution comes from cider vinegar and rusting out 000 grade steel wool until it falls apart to rust powder.
 
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