First Hamon Bad

JBS TOOLMAKER

JBS TOOLMAKER

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May 4, 2009
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I normaly use air hardening tool steels, but seeing all these hamons on this sight I had to try. I used 1095 clay coated(Red devil furnace cement) Ramped to 1475 held for 10 mins. I think I should not have let it cook that long. Quenched in Parks in,2 ,3 out 2 , 3 and back in till cool .Tempered @ 400 for 2 hours x 2. I noticed after the quench there was about 1/4" wide layer of decarb right between the clay and the edge.I could'nt get a decent picture so I sketched it to show detail. The light grey area is where the clay was the dark area is decarb and the white is the Rc. hardest area( checked on bench tester).I finished the blade to 600 on the grinder(hollow ground) did an hour in vinegar polished and this drawing is how it looked. Soak time too long? Should I have coated the whole blade with a thin coat for decarb ? Can I re heat treat it without annealing ?
Thanks
Jason B Stout
 

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JBS TOOLMAKER said:
I normaly use air hardening tool steels, but seeing all these hamons on this sight I had to try. I used 1095 clay coated(Red devil furnace cement) Ramped to 1475 held for 10 mins. I think I should not have let it cook that long. Quenched in Parks in,2 ,3 out 2 , 3 and back in till cool .Tempered @ 400 for 2 hours x 2. I noticed after the quench there was about 1/4" wide layer of decarb right between the clay and the edge.I could'nt get a decent picture so I sketched it to show detail. The light grey area is where the clay was the dark area is decarb and the white is the Rc. hardest area( checked on bench tester).I finished the blade to 600 on the grinder(hollow ground) did an hour in vinegar polished and this drawing is how it looked. Soak time too long? Should I have coated the whole blade with a thin coat for decarb ? Can I re heat treat it without annealing ?
Thanks
Jason B Stout
Click to expand...


that is the same problem i was having. How thick was your clay. I found out that mine was to thick and was holding the temp under the clay to long which was heating the blade and not alowing it to quench. welcome to the world of guessing where the hamon will go.
 
First of all, the first hamon rarely turns out. It takes practice, lots! Yes, you can re-heat treat without annealing, as long as the edge isn't too thin. Your soak time wasn't too long.

How do you know that area is decarb? I've never run across that. My guess would be, it's just part of the hamon. I get a secondary line or dark area right above the line quite often and think it's cool.
 
Don Hanson III said:
First of all, the first hamon rarely turns out. It takes practice, lots! Yes, you can re-heat treat without annealing, as long as the edge isn't too thin. Your soak time wasn't too long.

How do you know that area is decarb? I've never run across that. My guess would be, it's just part of the hamon. I get a secondary line or dark area right above the line quite often and think it's cool.
Click to expand...

I believe it was decarb because it was a thick layer of scale just in that area. There was light scale everywhere accept what I have shown in white, but that dark spot was really thick with it.
 
Gotta agree wit Don. At 1475 you shouldn't have gotten decarb. I do use a thin,very thin wash on the whole blade to keep scaleing down. I also uae satinite for my clay. With Parks I just go in and move back and forth, I do the 3 in 3 out with brine quench.
One thing to suggest is to hand sand from guard to tip up to 800 then re-etch. I don't know why but when doing a belt finish on a knife with a hamon I always ended up with what seemed like a smeared hamon line. ( Could just be me)
Keep trying cause when you get it right its a wonderful thing. I've gotten to beleive it has alot to do with the moon and which direction the shop cats butt is pointed.
 
I would say yes. Normally for me around 1/8 gives best results. 1/4 may give you some residual heat. I just love a good hamon. Don does the best ones I've seen on W2
Don a couple pics would be a great inspiration.
 
I was having this problem too. I solved it by using a thin coating of antiscale compound after the clay dried. I started out using very watered down clay from a local hilside, then pottery clay, and I finally moved to Brownell's antiscale compound. Problem gone. My hamons are now really crisp and easy to polish up and etch after heat treat.
 
As said by all, first put a wash coat of clay (satanite seems to work best for me) over the entire blade. After that is dry, apply the hamon producing clay. It doesn't need to be more than 1/8", and can be as thin as 1/16". Some experimentation will determine your style and preferences.

Looking at your sketch, showing a martensite ( hard) spine and a martensite edge with the darker pearlite (soft) between the two, makes me wonder if you coated the spine? Or if the spine clay split or popped off in the heating and soaking.

If you did not coat the spine, try it with clay on the spine. The tutorials that call for wiping then clay from the spine are usually for swords, to control the sori ( curvature).

If you did put clay on the spine, it may need to be a bit thicker there.

When designing a hamon, sketch the blade in two colors. The white color will be the hard martensite, created by cooling the 1095/W2 down below 900F in less than a second. The darker grey color will be the pearlite. The wispy clouds will be where the two mix at the hamon. These color differences are created by the etching in the final hand finishing. The use of various polishes ( red rouge, Flitz, Simichrome, and many strange Japanese words), and diluted etchants ( lemon juice, FC, hydrochloric/muriatic/nitric acid,etc.), create the color distinction. In grinding, and early polishing, the hamon may ( usually is) be invisible. A quick dip in the FC tank will be of use after quench, to see if the hamon is where you want it. Just give the blade a quick grind with a 220 belt to knock off the rind ( scale and decarb) before you do the temper, and stick it in the FC for a few seconds. The hamon should be visible, but the fine details won't be seen until final polishing and etching, often repeatedly etching-rubbing-etching for the final step.

A lot of grinding and metal removal after quench may remove a lot of the hamon's details. Hollow grinding after quench may move it or re-move it. Remember they call the steels that make the best hamons shallow hardening. So, do as much grinding as needed to get the blade surface prepared for quench. Leave the edge thick enough to prevent warp, but take the bevels to about 400 grit and near final shape.

Your soak time was proper, and the hamon may be fine when you get the blade done.
It is not unusual to have a large ( and painful) learning curve when first starting hamons. Eventually you just let them be what they want to be, and you become happier.

Stacy
 
bladsmth said:
As said by all, first put a wash coat of clay (satanite seems to work best for me) over the entire blade. After that is dry, apply the hamon producing clay. It doesn't need to be more than 1/8", and can be as thin as 1/16". Some experimentation will determine your style and preferences.

Looking at your sketch, showing a martensite ( hard) spine and a martensite edge with the darker pearlite (soft) between the two, makes me wonder if you coated the spine? Or if the spine clay split or popped off in the heating and soaking.

If you did not coat the spine, try it with clay on the spine. The tutorials that call for wiping then clay from the spine are usually for swords, to control the sori ( curvature).

If you did put clay on the spine, it may need to be a bit thicker there.

When designing a hamon, sketch the blade in two colors. The white color will be the hard martensite, created by cooling the 1095/W2 down below 900F in less than a second. The darker grey color will be the pearlite. The wispy clouds will be where the two mix at the hamon. These color differences are created by the etching in the final hand finishing. The use of various polishes ( red rouge, Flitz, Simichrome, and many strange Japanese words), and diluted etchants ( lemon juice, FC, hydrochloric/muriatic/nitric acid,etc.), create the color distinction. In grinding, and early polishing, the hamon may ( usually is) be invisible. A quick dip in the FC tank will be of use after quench, to see if the hamon is where you want it. Just give the blade a quick grind with a 220 belt to knock off the rind ( scale and decarb) before you do the temper, and stick it in the FC for a few seconds. The hamon should be visible, but the fine details won't be seen until final polishing and etching, often repeatedly etching-rubbing-etching for the final step.

A lot of grinding and metal removal after quench may remove a lot of the hamon's details. Hollow grinding after quench may move it or re-move it. Remember they call the steels that make the best hamons shallow hardening. So, do as much grinding as needed to get the blade surface prepared for quench. Leave the edge thick enough to prevent warp, but take the bevels to about 400 grit and near final shape.

Your soak time was proper, and the hamon may be fine when you get the blade done.
It is not unusual to have a large ( and painful) learning curve when first starting hamons. Eventually you just let them be what they want to be, and you become happier.

Stacy
Click to expand...
Stacey,
Yes I did coat just the spine.The white area on my drawing is the hard area as tested on the Rc bench tester. I have a hamon and I have a hard edge. The area I am concerned about is the dark area between the two.As I said there was a lot more scale in this area.The clay did not come off until I knocked it off after quench. My clay was a little more than 1/4" thick.
Thanks
Jason B Stout
 
Last edited:
Don a couple pics would be a great inspiration.
Click to expand...
Not the best photo to show the dark area I sometimes get above the hamon, but it shows that a lot of stuff can happen above the line.

You do not have decarb, decarb would likely etch a light color. I have also found 1095 to be more difficult to get very cool hamon than W2. Lastly, 1/4" clay is too thick, like said above.

super-hamon1-08.jpg
 
Thanks guys, Don your blades are awesome, I really like your work.Same goes for you Stacey. Like I said I have been working tool steels since my first knife 7 yrs ago. And I know that's odd most people start with 10xx steels and work up. Being a toolmaker I was more familiar with A-2, D-2 and 154-cm. I made the mistake of thinking I could control the process, and make a beautiful hamon like the one in Don's picture the first time.Boy was I wrong. On the next one I will know to expect anything, and learn something from it. Thanks to everybody.
Jason B Stout
 
Jason, the best thing you learned here. We can do things to effect the hamon but there is
no way to completely control it. :)
 
Don Hanson III said:
Not the best photo to show the dark area I sometimes get above the hamon, but it shows that a lot of stuff can happen above the line.

You do not have decarb, decarb would likely etch a light color. I have also found 1095 to be more difficult to get very cool hamon than W2. Lastly, 1/4" clay is too thick, like said above.

super-hamon1-08.jpg
Click to expand...

you know don that picture just blowes me away. by looking at it i am trying to decipher where you put the clay and how you got the line so active. from what i gather is this. you covered the spine and the back of the blade down to about the 1/3rd mark from the spine, then put lines of clay from there down to the 3/4th makr maybe just a bit lower maybe 4/5th. what i would love to see is one of your blades with the clay on it befor you heat treat it. i know that might be asking for alot but i would find it very awesom to have a befor and after picture so i could see how the hamon moves around the clay when you do it. Thanks
 
JT, the hamon never follows the clay exact. I also never think to take a pic with clay on.
I'm always 100% focused on the HT and go straight to the forge after I apply the clay.
Half the fun is figuring how to do, right? :)
 
Walter Sorrells' DVD on hamons is very informative, and there is a lot of useful information whether you make swords or knives. His entire series of DVDs is a great course in Japanese blade work, and will aid in getting the most from any blade. I have watched them many times, and pick up a nuance almost every time. I would say it is the best $230 one could spend if interested in learning a skill that is not a readily available subject at most seminars and hammer-ins. There is 10-12 hours of first rate video, supplier lists,and well planned learning steps. What I like most of all is his simple approach to Japanese swords and knives. No mystique, hype, or pretense of his being a master of anything, or the swords being anything but what they are. He gives real world advise and procedures that will work for a newer smith with no special tools or Japanese blade experience. His "Katana" set will help you make a katana that is a real working sword....for less than $100, maybe less than $50.
http://www.waltersorrells.com/blades/accessories.htm
Stacy
 
Thanks for the pic Don,
Stacy is right. I have the set and Walter does a great job teaching. Basicly Hamons take practice.
 
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