First hand-honing use of waterstones

T

thombrogan

Joined
Nov 16, 2002
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That db guy wrote some threads and posted some links that made sharpening without a guided system or a belt-sander seem within the reach of a shaky-handed schmoe like me. That Ted Gamble guy sold me a waterstone sharpening dvd by that Murray Carter guy which made hand-honing and waterstone honing look even more doable. HoB, Yuhuza, Jeff Clark, and a cast of thousands gave me great tips on what to look for in waterstones. That HoB guy suffered a trillion private waterstone questions with saintly patience. That Bill K. guy at Craftsman Studio sold me a Norton 1000/8000 combination waterstone (at a great price) for cowdy custards looking to get their feet wet.

Gouged the 8,000 grit with my first knife. :o It's barely harder than my leather strop.

The 1,000 cut fast and left a muddy finish and the 8,000 seemed to cut even faster (an illusion caused by its yellow dye showing tons of swarf and the greyish brown of the 1,000 stone hiding said swarf) and left a dreamy finish on VG-10, 1084, and 52100. It was fast, fun, and easy - deburring included. The base/storage case Norton sells with the stone is adorable, but not entirely practical. A Lee Valley/Veritas Stone Pond would make splashing water over the stone to clean off the swarf so much faster. Luckily, one is here.

After years of guided systems (Sharpmaker, EdgePro, Lansky) and the kindness of belt-sanders and strops, I couldn't believe how easy it is to hand sharpen with waterstones. In preparation, I tried the waterstone technique on oilstones (with real oil!) and it worked alright (and our workbench is slickery - blech), but it was so much faster and fun with waterstones.

Thanks, everybody!
 
I've used water stones to sharpen my knives since I started using them. At first it was a little difficult to get the right angle, but as soon as you figure out how to hold the knife to get the right angle then it's a piece of cake. As long as you keep the stone wet and hold the knife steady then you're gold. I've tried using oil stones and ceramic rod systems and I keep going back to the water stones.
 
Ah so, grasshoppah... So very glad you happy.

Although I have never had the pleasure of using waterstones (outside of the EdgePro), could we infer that since waterstones cut faster than Arks, that you stand a better chance of getting it close to right simply because you have to make less strokes? In other words, if you consider that you might have to make 4 times the number of strokes on an Ark as compared to a waterstone, and if you are fairly good with your skills, then the odds are in your favor that you will make less errant passes if you have to make fewer total strokes...

And no, I ain't givin up my E/P to buy even more friggin' stones, even if Thom DOES say that they're then next best thing to sex ...
 
I'm with you Ted. I started out years ago freehand and then tried 'large brick' water stones.
Now I use an EP and all is well.......

But Thom is bound to find some new trick that we 'rod' guys can use.
 
TedGamble,

I think you're right about the fast cutting being helpful. Also, aluminum oxide is harder than silicon dioxide, so synthetic waterstones will cut more types of steel with less problems than Arkansas stones - including knives made from D2 by Arkansas knifemakers (such as Krein, Dozier, and Russell). They cut slower than my Norton Crystolon, but it's silicon carbide (with extra sprinkling of 90x SiC powder added) and much coarser. The Crystolon, in turn, cuts way slower than my 120x SiC from EdgePro.
 
Actually Nosmo,

Other than the diamond stone and Dremel felt thing, I've just been copying you and MeDoctor with the occasional idea theft from Lyle Brunkhorst, QuietOned, and Ben and Sierra.
 
thombrogan said:
TedGamble,

I think you're right about the fast cutting being helpful. Also, aluminum oxide is harder than silicon dioxide, so synthetic waterstones will cut more types of steel with less problems than Arkansas stones - including knives made from D2 by Arkansas knifemakers (such as Krein, Dozier, and Russell). They cut slower than my Norton Crystolon, but it's silicon carbide (with extra sprinkling of 90x SiC powder added) and much coarser. The Crystolon, in turn, cuts way slower than my 120x SiC from EdgePro.
Click to expand...

Well, they still aren't a solution to those blades that are so badly damaged or shaped that you want to take an industrial grinder or milling machine to them, but speed does seem to be part of it. Since they are faster, there is less chance of sharpening becoming tedious (especially on those hard exotic steels that laugh at Arkansas stones), and if you find a stone that has good water retention, forms a nice slurry and has a pleasant "feel", the smooth creamy feel and "whoosh, whoosh" sound can be rather relaxing and more like playing in the mud than work ^-^

You can also handle more oddly shaped blades than most of the guide systems so you can also use them on things like plane blades, chisels or even little X-acto knives etc (and there are cone stones, slips and carver's stones for spoon blades, gouges and the like). A lot easier to clean up after than oil stones too (another thing I don't like about oil is when it gets on your hands it makes it difficult to get a good grip on anything) And, they come in grits less than a micron, which is close to stropping compound.

I only have one frustration with them and that is they tempt me to try to mirror polish the sides of blades and then you discover that there aren't many knives that are dead flat (you can quickly find those dimples where someone held one spot against the buffing wheel too long).
 
Thom, I am happy that your first experience was so pleasurable! It's surprising how soft these waterstones can be, isn't it? But it think, that is one of the reasons why they give such a great feedback to the sharpening hand. Did you gauge it with the tip?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by thombrogan
That db guy wrote some threads and posted some links that made sharpening without a guided system or a belt-sander seem within the reach of a shaky-handed
schmoe like me.

Us schmoes have to stick togather, I'm glad I helped in a small way to get you to try the free hand method.

"
After years of guided systems (Sharpmaker, EdgePro, Lansky) and the kindness of belt-sanders and strops, I couldn't believe how easy it is to hand sharpen

I couldn't either. I have nothing aginst the guided systems. In fact I think they did teach me how to free hand or at least they showed me how to get a sharp edge. It sure feels good to get that edge without the aid of a jig or a system doesn't it? I'm so glad I tried it free hand, years ago I couldn't put a edge on no matter how hard I tried or what I used.
 
The fun, ease, mess, and expense of waterstones (even my starter stone) make me believe that the sandpaper over glass or other hard surface method would be similar in application and results with less mess and initial expense.

Ted and Nosmo,

"Louisianna Cook" was telling me that he gets his edges sharper with regular waterstones than he does with his EdgePro, so I'm against abandoning the EdgePro (we've got to chip in and split some of those 0.1 micron diamond tapes from 3M and RS Hughes after all!), but big ol' waterstones work great.
 
There is something about using waterstones... It becomes almost a ritual getting set up and taking the stones out of the water pond, or putting them in if you don't store them soaked.

Then when you start sharpening and there is that sound of steel on the stones. The gluide and flow. The feel of metal being transformed to the brilliant edge that glints then blends with the light and the blade edge and the light become as one. A ritual as old as the first blades themselves. I think over the eons of time sharpening is ingrained into us at a molecular level. Embedded in our DNA perhaps. Or maybe I was a sword polisher in a pervious life.

When it all is working just right it soothes every nerve. I can actually measure the drop in my blood pressure. That's when it's all working when it isn't well the corresponding increase in my blood pressure can be felt and measured as well.

There is something to playing in the mud and the mess though. Maybe it satisfies the kid in me.
 
It becomes almost a ritual getting set up
Click to expand...
Try doing it listening to Native American Indian flute music... Being a Southern Boy, I'm a Skynyrd and Allman Brothers fan above all else, but there's just something about an Indian flute and steel on stone that really sets your mind free.
 
The sound and technique is very relaxing. I gouged my 1000x Norton trying to bring down the back of the tip a little. Now I know that I gotta watch that, but the gouges aren't deep and should come out quickly, or lapping will take care of that. One thing that I like in addition to the sounds is the *lack* of smell of oil, kerosene, what have you. I'm not ready to get rid of my edgepro, but these sure are fun to use. Congratulations Thom!
 
What do you do to prevent the gouging on the relatively soft stones? I've had this trouble with my 800 grit stone and some knives, but not others. It depends on the shape and tip thickness I think.
 
me2 said:
What do you do to prevent the gouging on the relatively soft stones? I've had this trouble with my 800 grit stone and some knives, but not others. It depends on the shape and tip thickness I think.
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With bench stones of any type I normally grind away, edge trailing, on the return stroke there is still pressure. It's less pressure on the return but pressure is there, most of my angles are pretty low anyhow thus gouges are less likely to occur. So this hasn't been a problem for me. I think we all gouge a stone sooner or later. It's just one of those things we don't admit to very often nor try to make a habit of.

Grinding into the edge it's easier to gouge the stone. When I do grind edge first I go slower I use less pressure for sure. Takes me longer to sharpen.
I've been doing the edge trailing sharpening so long that it kind of just happens. But when I go to edge on I have to think more. Something that's not "natural" for me. The thinking I mean. At least that's what I think I mean. Something like that anyhow.
 
Me2,

The only preventative I know for avoiding gouging is to be mindful of the tip's location at all times.

HoB,

Yep, the tip. :o

Sodak, TedGamble, and Nosmo,

Recurved blades make the EdgePro and the Sharpmaker must haves. Tried an S30V hawkbill on the stones tonight and went right back to the EdgePro for that one. Can't wait to try longer blades on it.
 
Do you sharpen edge trailing or leading with water stones. I have been getting good results using spyderco ceramics and an eze sharp, but have always thought about water stones.....
 
It's not so much about the gauging of the stone that I am worrying about, but the edge. Gauging means that you are cutting into the stone....into the abrasive. You are hardly establishing an ideal edge like this. But what I worry about aswell is, what happens on a soft medium if you don't quite gauge the stone? You might be still so steep that you are actually shaving off a little bit of the stone (even though you might not notice it), which again implies you are actually cutting into the stone. Again very detrimental to the edge. So on soft abrasives, I always sharpen edge trailing. On hard stones, I don't think it matters, or you might even get a better edge with edge leading. Not all waterstones are that way. Especially the coarser ones, even though they have often a softer bond, are often hard enough that you can simply scrub back and forth.

Gauging with the tip: I find, it is a matter of experience. What I usually do is I set the tip down and for the first 0.5" or so I draw perpendicular to the edge and after that I change into a more diagonal stroke of tip to heel. That prevent running the tip straight into the stone if you are too steep. Often I neglegt the very tip as well and focus on the tip once I am done with the rest of the blade by going diagonal heel to tip so that the tip is trailing. You can not restore the tip that way (as Murray Carter mentions in his DVD) but you can sharpen it that way.
 
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