First hand-honing use of waterstones

If you're married or involved don't get it. Be warned! Your wife or significant other or partner or gf ... will say "How come Murray Carter only needs two stones? No Edge Pro. No Tormek. Just two stones. How come..." it'll wreck your day.

I got mine off ebay. Just do a search for "Advanced Sharpening Techniques" is one at least for sale most of the time. Right now Advanced Sharpening Techniques You can do the "Buy Now" thing as I did and avoid the wait and bid and watch etc.

If you're an advanced sharpener you won't get as much from it as a newbie would. It is worth the purchase though just to watch him and that BIG wheel. Even so Murray Carter (and his two stones) have a lot to answer for.
 
Anybody know the difference between the two Murray Carter DVDs in the threads immediately above?

One is: Advanced Knife Sharpening Techniques
and the other is: Introduction To Knife Sharpening

Thanks,

SAK
 
If you're married or involved don't get it. Be warned! Your wife or significant other or partner or gf ... will say "How come Murray Carter only needs two stones? No Edge Pro. No Tormek. Just two stones. How come..." it'll wreck your day.

LOL! Thanks for the links. I don't get it, what 2 stones (flat regular waterstones) does he use? Should I buy the 1200 grit and 8000 grit stones that I was going to get or what? I want to sharpen a custom made knife to polished so I can mount it on the front of my car to part air and make it faster.
 
SAK said:
Anybody know the difference between the two Murray Carter DVDs in the threads immediately above?

One is: Advanced Knife Sharpening Techniques
and the other is: Introduction To Knife Sharpening

Thanks,

SAK

Curious also.

Rob
 
SAK said:
Anybody know the difference between the two Murray Carter DVDs in the threads immediately above?

One is: Advanced Knife Sharpening Techniques
and the other is: Introduction To Knife Sharpening

Thanks,

SAK

Yup... I do... there is no difference. I had Intro... then ordered the Advanced when I saw it on Ebay It's the same video.

cbw
 
ghost squire said:
I don't get it, what 2 stones (flat regular waterstones) does he use? Should I buy the 1200 grit and 8000 grit stones that I was going to get or what?

He uses an 800 and a 6000. Just like mom used to make.
 
Well, I ordered the epray dvd and it's on the way.

Now, I just need to find a deal on a Shapton Pro 5K. I have a Pro 1K and 8K, but nothing in the middle.

Rob
 
Thanks for all the sharpening inspiration guys. I got the DVD as well after reading of it here, and after testing many of mine using his 3 finger test, discovered I had a lot fewer sharp knives than I thought I did. I have never used this test before and like it.

I got out a semi-beater 8" MMHW, and after a while on the 1000 water stone (no good), then diamond stone, then frustration and a trip to the power sander, then another half hour on the diamond stones, then a while on a 1000 grit water stone, I finally got my fingers to not move at all on the edge (roll). Took it in the woods this weekend and it would slice through branches and really penetrate into wood - really amazing compared to how it was before. Stropped it twice when I got home, and cut a 6" corner off the telephone book easy (I've been working on this and a paperback cut inspired by Jimmy Fikes). I'm beginning to understand Murray's comments about current "fashionable" edge geometry of many knives. Will eventually get it onto the 5000 and 15000, but I have a hard time believing it can get much sharper.

Unfortunately now I want to put this edge on some more valuable big knives. Really not the best for resale value, but I may not be able to resist.
 
Broos said:
Unfortunately now I want to put this edge on some more valuable big knives. Really not the best for resale value, but I may not be able to resist.

If you polish up all of the areas you hit with the sander and diamond file with the high grit waterstones, you'll lose value in name recognition, but may be able to trade it off as a beautiful knife that actually can cut.
 
Well, the DVD arrived, but I changed my mind on the Shapton Pro 5K.

I ordered an AOTO natural blue stone instead. I've been wanting to play in the mud and have been wanting one of these stones for the longest, so I went for it.

As superior as the Shapton Pro series is, you really don't get that swish swish of a natural.

If it doesn't work out the way I expect, the Shaptons are still very much available, but natural stones are becoming more scarce.

For me, the Shapton Pro 1K achieves about 90/95% of what I'm looking for in sharpness. All that polishing comes to naught once my wife grabs the blade to cut whatever on the counter as a cutting board. LOL If it doesn't cut easily, she grabs a rubber mallet for 'help'.

She treats all knives like $4 K-Mart specials, but this is really good for getting totally unbiased test from her. She thinks Busse's cost no more than $50 and Swamp Rats no more than $25. She whangs on all equally. LOL

Rob
 
Rob,

If all other knives are $4 quality in your wife's mind, it's only reasonable that Busse and Swamp Rat knives would seem to cost more than 6-12x in comparison.

I'm finding that Carter's technique works great on blocks of medium density fiber-board topped with sticky-backed sandpaper or 3M micro-finishing film. Plus, it's less expensive (compared to Shapton and Naniwa, at least), less messy, and the finish can go right up to 0.05 microns if you have the patience and a contact at 3M (I have neither).
 
Having read this thread and watched the Murray Carter DVD, I'm ready to give it a wirl with the Waterstones. My question is, is there a consensus on the best stones and where to purchase them?
 
For simply the best and no experimenting on your part, go with the Shaptons and you can't go wrong.

I have 2. A Pro 1K and a PRO 8K. I am most impressed with the 1K. Haven't used the 8K yet as I didn't have an intermediate stone like a Pro5K to make the jump. But the Pro1K gets things very sharp on it's own.

They aren't cheap, but the Shapton Pro 1K is a good place to start if there is no major reprofiling work to be done.

Rob
 
I don't think there is a consensus on which stones are "best" There are different types of stones and each has their own peculiarities. A lot depends on personal tastes as well as what you are sharpening (some work better on carbon steel, some on stainless, some retain just the right amount of water, others are almost non-porous and need splashing or spraying, some are really soft and easy to gouge, others are glass hard and some in between). And, there are just WAY too many stones for anyone to afford to try them all. (if you don't mind trying to figure out the strange Japanglish translations that babelfish comes up with, you can fire it up and find quite a few reviews of synthetic and natural stones here http://www015.upp.so-net.ne.jp/toishi-erabi/index.html -under the menu selection on the left frame with the "new" tag under it).

for carbon, I like my MinoSharp 1k (a red clay stone. A bit finer and slower than a Shapton 1k but has a nice "feel" leaves a nice matte finish and holds the right amount of water so it will only look damp but water will well out around the edge of the knife when you get the bevel flat on the stone, creates a bit of slurry and doesn't dry out on me). My natural aoto blue stone (very messy, makes a lot of mud, but the feel and sound make it a pleasure to use, and you can work the mud to a decent medium polish). A natural awase (medium hard, holds water fairly decently and is somewhere between 6 and 8k, makes a little slurry and leaves a shiny open finish, but leaves a dark brown haze on stainless)

For stainless, the Shapton pro's may not cut stainless or tool steel as fast as they can carbon steel but they are still pretty fast and they leave a clean bright finish and hardly wear at all compared to most brands (but are very hard so lack a good tactile feel and don't hold water). Bester coarse stones are also good (a bit slower, but fast enough and don't dish as quickly as a lot of others either) and a Naniwa 10k (very soft and wears faster than other ultra-fine stones, but has a decent tactile feel and leaves a nice finish).

The Shapton 2k is one of my favorites for either stainless or carbon... cuts very fast, holds more water and has a bit more "feel" than the finer grits and leaves a much smoother finish than the 1k. It has a good balance between speed, finish and feel, though I wish it held water like a clay stone. The Naniwa 10k is an ultra-soft stone that takes some getting used to but has a nice feel and is great for polishing (more than sharpening) either carbon or stainless. The 10k seems good for hard steel... it wears quickly due to its softness so cuts fast, forms a bit of slurry even without a nagura, has a decent tactile feel for such a fine stone. It does gouge easily so you have to be careful but is less likely to damage or round your edge due to free-hand slop (if you get too sloppy, you'll gouge the stone and have to resort to edge-trailing strokes) The Shapton cream (12k/15k depending on the packaging) is a very hard stone so should be good for controlling the edge on softer steels, but is like sharpening on a hunk of glass (cuts quickly even though it lacks a good tactile feel) and not at all forgiving of slop (can easily round or dull that nice sharp edge you had on your medium polish stone unless you are good at holding a consistant angle... if you are, then it will produce a wickedly sharp edge).

Suehiro 6k is a medium soft stone. Leaves a decent finish but the slurry may grab smooth flat blades (the slurry can make a nice vacuum seal between the stone and the back of a plane or something). It is a tad slower than the Shapton 5k, but also seems to work on carbon or stainless and seems a decent alternative to it when you want a softer stone.

For hogging metal I like the arato kimi PA 220 (pink/white 220 grit aluminum oxide brick from Epicurian Edge or Japan Woodworker)... hogs metal, but doesn't wear as fast as SiC stones seem to and leaves a finish more like a 400 grit.

Stones I haven't used but have heard good things about... King G1 8k, Kitayama 8k (can polish like a 12k), Takenoko 8k (not as smooth but faster cutting). I've also heard good things about the King F1 (4k). Norton waterstones (a bit coarser than the same grit in a Japanese stone but cut fast and are cheaper since they don't have to be imported). Naniwa Snow White 8k (a magnesia stone like the Suehiro's... not the same as the super ceramic series which the green 10k is a part of). Arashiyama... has natural stone powder in it and works like the Kitayama (but I'm told it is better for traditional carbon steels rather than tool or stainless). Shapton M15 and M24 series (also rated highly but are more traditional stones, so form a slurry and some may prefer them to the pro series)

Good places to get them can be found on this thread on knife forums http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/showtopic.php?tid/759892/
 
yuzuha and others, for a little mini review of the Ice Bears check out my thread on this subforum. I highly recommend them!
 
Will do. I saw that you said the 10k was more of a medium hardness... have to check it out next time I want to blow some $ as it would be nice to have something a little harder than the Nanaiwa and softer than the Shapton.
 
Yes, it is possible to gouge the 10k and to some extent the 4k (though the 4k is slightly harder), especially at the edges of the stones if too much pressure is applied. Generally speaking I don't have a problem with it though, and neither can be scratched with a fingernail. Just thought I'd let you know how they were since your comments on waterstones throughout this forum have helped me so much.
 
Yuzuha, I really appreciate the time you took to respond to my question on waterstones.

I thought that I was "done" when I acquired my EDge Pro Pro Model but I feel that little "itch" to start with another obsession. Freehanding is next.

BTW...the Murray Carter video I just purchased has started that "itch". Does anyone know what the stones are that he uses. The video is a bit repetitive, and I'm only partially through it, but he seems to get by with a tub of water, a 2X4 board and just two stones.
 
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