First Hut fire FAIL!

[LMT66]

I went out to the hut TheZenful1 and I built a while back. No signs of anyone else having been there so I guess Zen picked a good place for it. Easy access but well off the trail system.

Here is the first thread on this showing it in various stages before tarping it.

Walking in I saw a Big FAT Cardinal. Picture the biggest fattest pregnant Robin you've ever seen and double the size. Speaking of Robins, I have never seen so many stick around these parts this late in December. Maybe they are late leaving or they sense a mild winter? They were sure chewing out this Cardinal.

Arriving and surprised to see the snow stuck to the tarp shell. Heavy wet snow has been falling early this season. Almost a Camo look over the Camo tarp.

Today I had no tinder kit or firesteel, just my Bic lighter. I failed to check my pack before I left. My firekit was in my other pack at home.
I failed big time trying to light a fire with anything and about everything I could find. It took me dang near 2 hours to get a fire going. I was down to micro-sticks and had a flame about 1cm tall that i slowly coaxed to stay lit.
I've actually gotten pretty good getting a fire going with just my tinder kit and firesteel in wet or dry weather. Today, with a lighter, in a shelter with no wind, I failed. Even the leaves on the shelter floor were damp and were of no use until after a fire was just barely going.
This goes to show that your thinking wrong if you head out with a Bic lighter thinking fire is going to be a no-brainer. Also, as I've said before, toss the Bic and buy a generic gas station lighter. These no-name lighters are adjustable and are like flame throwers on high. A Bic only provides a 1/2" flame in good conditions and there is no adjustment under the silver band up top.

I was really frustrated and tossed the camera in my pack during fire starting duty, so no pics. I had four nice blades with me today and like to include knife pron but wasn't in the mood after the fire saga. I shaved a hat full of various dead/downed wood. Even the thinnest fuzz sticks I made were not much help. Everything was soaked thru and thru or was green.

I did eventually get a nice fire going which was the point of todays trip out of doors. Today I wanted to test out a fire within the Hut to see if I could vent it enough to keep from getting smoked out. When the last 2 tarps went on, they were joined at the top to allow them to be split so heat and smoke would vent up and out. I tried separating them a little at a time while I adjusted the door which is just a piece of tarp hanging over the entrance.
I could not get the smoke level any higher than waist level and to achieve that, I had to remove the "door" and split the tarp halves on top as far as I could. For sleeping this is fine but for sitting around and chatting in the evening before turning in, it was just barely tolerable. I will say that even with the door open and the top open wide, I was toasty laying legs length away from the rock ring. I was actually sweating in there. It was about 28F today and lake effect snow.
I'd like the smoke level to be at least chest high. I'm open to suggestions on this so feel free to chime in and offer pointers.

Various pics of the inside and the top:

On arrival, virgin firepit

 

[LMT66]

Deer rubs were all over. I took a hike around the area and deer tracks were everywhere.

My saw got a workout today.

Had a nice glow coming off the silver tarps I used on the lower part of the hut.

Looks warm in there on a cold snowy day! Sorry for all the fire pics but I really worked to enjoy this one and get warm.

 

[grunt soldier]

looks like a good day out. and sometimes getting a fire going is just a plain pain in the ass when its super wet and cold. shelter looks like its holding up good

 

[Snow]

Looks like a success to me. You got a fire.

What different tinders and techniques did you use? Did you try a one stick fire with dead standing wood? I've never had a failure that way.

 

[nemoaz]

First, stack your wood beside the fire and let it dry. The smoke is due in part to incomplete combustion due to the moisture.

Second, consider elevating the firepit.

Third, consider having an opening that allows the prevailing wind to enter and create an updraft. A trench under the firepit could also help.

Fourth, build a smaller fire. The white man builds a big fire and sits way back. The Indian builds a small fire and sits up close. A small fire produces less smoke than a big fire.

 

[Moosez45]

I was wondering about an airtrough dung underground, cover with bark to keep it open and taken directly under the fire pit. I have never tried one, but I hear they work quite well.

I believe with the door open and the top open, you might have created a non circulating, back flow of air, the cold air was falling in the top and the warm air was being pushed back down and out the door. Perhaps just adjusting the size of the opening might be the ticket. Not sure, I know I really interested in this thread, I will continue to watch it to make sure I learn this, because that is one fine shelter you got there.

Moose

 

[Battle Creek Knives]

very nice shelter !!! huge props on design and function..

can you say tee-pee?? I agree with the indian remarks btw, also another good reason in whitemans big fire, easier to ambush.....blinded.................

now just curious, in rain what do you do for fire, with the top open and all???

 

[LMT66]

Looks like a success to me. You got a fire.

What different tinders and techniques did you use? Did you try a one stick fire with dead standing wood? I've never had a failure that way.

I about tried everything I could find. Grass, leaves, the smallest of anything that was dead or fallen, stripped bark and tried scraping the dry sides, strands from deer rubs.
There are quite a few tall oaks and cottonwoods in the area but anything that was downed was rotting and soaked.

First, stack your wood beside the fire and let it dry. The smoke is due in part to incomplete combustion due to the moisture.

Second, consider elevating the firepit.

Third, consider having an opening that allows the prevailing wind to enter and create an updraft. A trench under the firepit could also help.

Fourth, build a smaller fire. The white man builds a big fire and sits way back. The Indian builds a small fire and sits up close. A small fire produces less smoke than a big fire.

Someone suggested the trench in the original thread and I think I'll try that after seeing this again.
The fire really wasn't very big. The pit itself is only about 25" across and I was only using half of it. Maybe I should fill in the pit and just use rocks around it.

I was wondering about an airtrough dung underground, cover with bark to keep it open and taken directly under the fire pit. I have never tried one, but I hear they work quite well.

I believe with the door open and the top open, you might have created a non circulating, back flow of air, the cold air was falling in the top and the warm air was being pushed back down and out the door. Perhaps just adjusting the size of the opening might be the ticket. Not sure, I know I really interested in this thread, I will continue to watch it to make sure I learn this, because that is one fine shelter you got there.

Moose

I'll have to try it with a circular vent up top instead of it being elongated. Maybe it'll help. After it was going, you could really see the heat mirage when outside.

very nice shelter !!! huge props on design and function..

can you say tee-pee?? I agree with the indian remarks btw, also another good reason in whitemans big fire, easier to ambush.....blinded.................

now just curious, in rain what do you do for fire, with the top open and all???

A tee-pee might be the next project very close by.

When we built it, we figured that if we had a well burning fire, rain or snow wont be a big factor when the top was open and heat was rising.
If you look at the tarping pictures from the thread I posted when we constructed it (link is up top), the tarps can be tied together to close the top.
The real purpose of this particular shelter was to have a dry place to hang out in winter and to do a few overnights in the dead of winter. I think that in warmer weather, a heavy prolonged downpour would douse the fire enough to make in intolerable inside (smoke), so we also have a lean-to right outside ready to be tarped and there is a firepit pit in front of it.

You can see it on the right in this picture.

 

[Loosearrow]

Looks like lots of work that will pay off big time. I have a tipi and it is set up with the door facing east not west. Greets the morning sun and when trying to adjust the smoke flaps,fewer times the wind comes from the east. Maybe you could try constructing some smoke flaps on some poles to help evacuate the smoke. You could then close up the door more and have more of a draw. The tipi has an inner liner 1/3 of the way up. I read in Laubin's tipi book that it was possible to bury a pipe from the fire pit to the outside of the shelter . Nice work.

 

[cody1]

Think about how many Indians did their sweat lodges. If you keep the shelter buttoned up and sealed fairly well, you can use hot rocks to warm the interior. Build a large fire and heat up a bunch of river rocks. Once hot, move the rocks into the pit inside the shelter. Don't bring in any coals. The hot rocks won't emit smoke, but will heat the interior very well. Then you rotate the rocks from the fire outside. Another option you could try..

 

[Bufford]

You simply need a taller shelter like the wigwams the indians built. They built them tall so that the smoke can chimney up and out the top. Those shelters were much like a chimney in design to carry away smoke while offering protection from the weather.

 

[DOC-CANADA]

The tipi has an inner liner 1/3 of the way up.

That's part of your answer. The inner liner goes right to the ground and extends up above your head. The outer cover stops a few inches short of the ground so that you create a chimney effect with the air coming under the outer cover, up between the outer and inner and up through the smoke hole. You have to make sure the gap between the outer cover and the ground is not plugged with snow. This in conjunction with a primary air feed to your fire should do the trick.

I once spent a winter night in a tipi with a frost liner, but the snow covered the air opening of the outer cover (didn't know any better). Had to put the fire out because of the smoke.

Build a large fire and heat up a bunch of river rocks.

I don't know how advisable it is to use river rocks. They can explode in a fire because of the internal moisture. Ask me how I know.

Doc

 

[JV3]

good stuff, man! we're about to get a good heaping of snow tomorrow too so i'll try to get out there and play. as for firesteels, they're so cheap i just leave one in every pack i have, including in my winter jackets so there's no way i can leave home without one.

 

[upnorth]

Cool. It looks exactly like a native sweat lodge that you see now and then out here in the bush, or on a reserve.

 

[kgd]

Nice thread and thanks for reporting your trials. That really is the nature of it sometimes. There are always a few folks on the internetz that think that failure or difficulty is somehow impossible or due to skills issues. Reality check is sometimes life can be difficult even when you've done everything right. Thats why it really is important to have emergency tinder and some type of kindling with you. Besides decreasing the amount of time needed to get a fire going during an emergency, it also ensures you can start up even in the worst of circumstances!

Talk to Rick about smoking himself out in his shelter. He seems to be constantly battling this.

 

[sicily02]

Hi all,

LMT66, I think you are being to hard on your self, You are getting out there and learning and practicing. You did not fail.
Just from the pics you posted,
I would take any bark off (less smoke) the wood that you are using,
Use split wood and make your fire smaller. The pics you posted looked
like a pretty big fire for a small shelter like that. I was not there I am just going by looks
Get wood in as soon as you can to start drying by the fire. That will really help in keeping the smoke down to a minimum too.

Great job on your set up.

Since a tipi was mentioned

I started on a small tipi last week.

I wrapped it with with a 10' x 20' 1 mil. drop cloth for fun.

I took the drop cloth down. It needed to have more poles added to it.
I did not get pics of that yet.
I plan on monday to get back out there to that site and finish it up and see how it goes with a fire inside it wish me luck lol.

Bryan

 

[nemoaz]

Nice thread and thanks for reporting your trials. That really is the nature of it sometimes. There are always a few folks on the internetz that think that failure or difficulty is somehow impossible or due to skills issues.

Ha! That's the way I learn. Of course, I'm a bit hard-headed.

 

[cody1]

That's part of your answer. The inner liner goes right to the ground and extends up above your head. The outer cover stops a few inches short of the ground so that you create a chimney effect with the air coming under the outer cover, up between the outer and inner and up through the smoke hole. You have to make sure the gap between the outer cover and the ground is not plugged with snow. This in conjunction with a primary air feed to your fire should do the trick.

I once spent a winter night in a tipi with a frost liner, but the snow covered the air opening of the outer cover (didn't know any better). Had to put the fire out because of the smoke.




I don't know how advisable it is to use river rocks. They can explode in a fire because of the internal moisture. Ask me how I know.

Doc

I'm curious! what do you make a fire ring out of, if your affraid of exploding rocks?

 

[nemoaz]

Someone suggested the trench in the original thread and I think I'll try that after seeing this again.

The fire really wasn't very big. The pit itself is only about 25" across and I was only using half of it. Maybe I should fill in the pit and just use rocks around it.

It's still a good-sized fire. I've seen good, well-insulated winter shelters that are warm below zero with only small scout fire or even a candle or two to heat them. A Dakota pit works too. Feed it with small sticks. Added bonus is that the underground fire heats your floor a bit.

You can insulate better, seal it up almost completely and use a small heat source. It won't get your wool and boots dry though. You can build the bigger fire out front to do that before you go to sleep. Insulating like crazy is always my first choice.

Or you can build a well ventilated teepee or wigwam style hut with an open center (Mears demonstrates these all the time) and rely on the inside fire.

Or you can build a lean to and reflector fire and burn a truckload of wood. Better have an axe.

I prefer the well-insulated (brush, leaves, snow whatever) fully enclosed shelter. It's not quite as warm but it isn't gonna fluctuate much inside. I can sleep all night long and I'm not worried about rolling into the fire or catching the darn thing on fire. If it's well below zero a small candle takes the edge off.

Teepee or similar would be my second favorite. Lean to and reflector is my last choice. I freeze my ass and toes off in one of those and spend the whole damn night getting up to stoke the fire. No fun. And a sudden snowstorm or snow shower may put out my fire and result in a dead Nemo. No fun at all.

 

[Loosearrow]

I'm curious! what do you make a fire ring out of, if your affraid of exploding rocks?

Well , you carefully outline and cut a square with a shovel, then cut the sod down the middle and fold it back to open up the pit. When done, water it down good and replace the sod. You don't have to hassle with the rocks.