First knife attempt (question)

[Core Knife Co.]

I am fascinated by the art and skill displayed by you makers. I've always wished I had an opportunity to spend some time with a maker and learn the craft from a professional. So instead I'm always looking for old axes or cleavers in the antique stores around my house which I restore. Then last night I decided I was going to give in a shot. I found a thread on bladeforums with a ton of links and information and I've decided to go this route.

http://www.hossom.com/jonesy/

I really want to try and do all of this myself. I'm going to have to cut the pattern per the link with drilling holes and hacksaw as I don't have the tools here to do it. I'm also going to try and jig and dye bones for the scales on this knife. I've been picking Keith (KR) Johnson's brain for information on dying and jigging. Per Keith's suggestion and also from Ken Coats posts on the subject, I've already ordered myself some Fiebings Oil Leather dye. This part I actually have some confidence on. Don't ask why I want to jig and dye scales. I just think it looks good.

It's the steel I'm kind of struggling with. The link suggests 5160 however I thought I would pick your brains on the best steel for a first knife. I'm going to try and do all the heat treatment myself. So the steel selection appears to be critical as I could quite easily screw this part up. Any suggestions or is 5160 a good place to start?

Here is a picture of the pattern I'm going to try.

I appreciate any feedback and suggestions.

Michael

 

[lonepine]

Michael,
Good luck on your first knife. I like your design.

Regarding the steel. There is a sticky titled "Working the three steel types" that could help you in your decision making here. The bottom line is that if you are doing your own heat treating using a fire (charcoal, coke, etc) for which you have no real control over the heat, 1080 is the most forgiving steel that you can use.

What I'm about to say will make those who really know the science and chemistry of heat treating want to throw up. If getting 1080 is a problem and you can get 5160 easily then go for it. You will be able to harden it yourself, just don't deceive yourself into thinking that you've done a stellar job of heat treatment to bring out all the strength and toughness the steel can give. But for a first knife and to get the experience under your belt it will be fine. Maybe you're one of those who's first knife will look like it was made by someone with years of experience. Mine sure wasn't. It showed me how much I didn't know. None the less, a first knife is sort of like a guy's first car, there is an emotional attachment to it, warts and all.

You WILL get the knife made, and it will be the best knife you've EVER made. We're all pulling for you.

- LonePine
AKA Paul Meske, Wisconsin

 

[12345678910]

I like your pattern, super practical and doable.

for a DIY HT, 1080 if you can find it.



Was this the post of links you saw ?


The Standard Reply to New Knifemakers v11

The answer to a 13 year old student is different than to a 40 year old engineer.
We may recommend a local supplier, or you may have a helpful neighbour; but that depends on where you are.
Fill out your profile with your location (Country and State at least), age, education, employment.

Look at the threads stickied at the top; many are expired, but not all.

The basic process in the simplest terms

Absolute Cheapskate Way to Start Making Knives-Printable PDF
Absolute Cheapskate Way to Start Making Knives-Website


Web Tutorials
Detailed instructions by Stacy E.Apelt

The Things I Advise New Knife Makers Against-Printable PDF

Handle Tutorial - Nick Wheeler-Website



Books

A list of books and videos on the KnifeDogs Forum
http://www.knifedogs.com/showthread.php?t=5285

BladeForums - E-books or Google books
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=603203

I like:
David Boye-Step by Step Knifemaking
Tim McCreight-Custom Knifemaking: 10 Projects from a Master Craftsman
These are clear, well organized, widely available and inexpensive too.

Knife Design:
On the Google books thread, you can find
Lloyd Harding drawings
and
the Loveless book with large variety of proven classic styles.
Google books thread


Forging Books:
Lorelei Sims-The Backyard Blacksmith
An excellent modern book with colour photos for forging in general - no knifemaking.

Jim Hrisoulas- has 3 books on forging knives. Check for the cheaper paperback editions.
The Complete Bladesmith: Forging Your Way to Perfection
The Pattern-Welded Blade: Artistry in Iron
The Master Bladesmith: Advanced Studies in Steel

Machine Shop Basics -Books:
Elementary Machine Shop Practice-Printable PDF

Machine Shop Tools-Printable PDF

The Complete Practical Machinist-Printable PDF


The $50 knife Shop
It confused me for a long time.
Forging is NOT necessary; you can just file and grind to create a knife (stock removal)

The goop quench is total Bull, commercial quench oils are available, even grocery store canola oil works much better.

Junkyard steels require skill and experience to identify the steel and heat treat it properly.
You can buy proper steel like 1084FG from Aldo very cheaply.

I like cable damascus, but that advanced project has no place in a beginners book.

The home built grinders are the best thing about this book, but there is now a huge amount of info for 2x72” belt grinders on the web, including free plans.


Videos

Heat Treating Basics Video-downloadable
Right click and save this. Watch it once a day for 10 days and you will understand it much better.
http://www.archive.org/download/gov.ntis.ava08799vnb1/ava08799vnb1_512kb.mp4

Many specific how to knifemaking videos are available, some are better than others.

The best overall Knifemaking video I have seen is
“Steve Johnson-Making a Sub-Hilt Fighter”

The best video on leather sheath making I have seen is
“Custom Knife Sheaths -Chuck Burrows - Wild Rose”
-(Paul Long has 2 new videos, his sheath work is fantastic. I hope the videos are too)

You can see a list of videos and reviews at this rental company; some are worth buying, some renting…
They are slow to get new titles and wait times are measured in months,
http://smartflix.com/store/category/9/Knifemaking

Green Pete's Free Video
Making a Mora bushcraft knife, stock removal, hand tools, neo tribal / unplugged heat treat.
"Green Pete" posted it free using torrent files.

Greenpete Knifemaking Basics-on TPB
You can also find it on YouTube broken into 4 parts.

Draw Filing Demonstration
YouTube video -Draw Filing-for a flat finish

Steel
The “welding steel” at Home Depot / Lowes… is useless for knives.
If you send out for heat treating, you can use O1, A2, D2, CM154, ATS34, s30v, 440C, plus many others.

If you heat treat yourself, find some 1070, 1080, 1084,
1084 FG sold by Aldo Bruno is formulated just for knifemaking.

You can find a list of suppliers here
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=699736

Aldo is highly rated.
http://njsteelbaron.com/
Ph# 862-203-8160

Heat Treating
You can send blades out for heat treating at $10 or $15 per blade for perfect results, and avoid buying the equipment.

This PDF brochure gives a good overview
http://www.buckknives.com/resources/pdf/Paul_Bos_Brochure.pdf

http://www.petersheattreat.com/
http://www.texasknife.com/vcom/about_us.php
http://www.knifemaker.ca/ (Canadian)

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9143684&postcount=7

Grinder / Tools

Hand Tools
You can do it all by hand with files and abrasive cloth like the Green Pete video.

Photo of a nice bevel filing jig .
http://www.flemingknives.com/imagesPrime/FileStation/KPicB007.jpg

Entry Level Grinders
Many makers start with the Sears Craftsman 2x42 belt grinder.
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00921513000P?prdNo=3

Commercial Production 2 x 72” Belt Grinders
http://www.prometheanknives.com/shop-techniques-3/grinders

Mapp arm – Grinder Toolrest
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=466024


DIY 2 x 72” Belt Grinders

KMG Clone
Free Plans
http://www.dfoggknives.com/PDF/GrinderPlans.pdf

NWG No Weld Grinder
http://www.usaknifemaker.com/plans-for-the-no-weld-grinder-sander-nearly-50-pages-p-723.html

EERF Grinder (EERF =“Free” backwards)
Free plans
http://wilmontgrinders.com/EERFGrinder.aspx
http://blindhogg.com/blueprints.html
http://www.atlasknife.com


Buy the kit
http://polarbearforge.com/grinder_kit.html


Safety Equipment
I have a sign at my shop door, “Eyes, Ears, Fingers, Lungs” as a reminder to take off jewelry and put on my safety gear.

Respirators

Those paper paint masks are about as effective as using a sock for a condom.

The minimum I would consider are the 3M and North silicone half masks;
even better are the powered positive pressure fresh air systems.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=788837
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=726309

 

[Erin Burke]

Most folks recommend 1080 or 1084 as a good beginner steel if you're going to heat treat yourself. I buy my 1080 from Kelly Cupples over in Yakima. You can find some info on what he sells HERE... though the info looks a bit out-of-date. It's best to shoot him an email to check on inventory.

Looks like you live close by... if you want to stop by my place, I can give you a chunk of 1080... I'm pretty sure I have some that'll fit your design. I have some 1-1/4" X 3/16" and some 1-1/2" X 1/8". Send me an email or a PM and we can set something up.

Erin

 

[Core Knife Co.]

lonepile, thanks for the information. It all helps.

1234567890, that is the link where I found the link that I had posted.

Erin, I appreciate it man. I'll send you an email later this weekend. I'm pretty pumped about it. I was certain that this wasn't doable with my limited resources, however the more I read the more I found it possible.

 

[Core Knife Co.]

I went ahead and glued the pattern onto some cardboard so I could get a better feel for the pattern. I like to choke way up on the blade and put my thumb and forefinger on the blade when skinning so I kept this in mind. That just leave three fingers on the handle so I left a big curve, almost like a sowbelly.

Taking a picture left handed is no easy task.

 

[Daniel Fairly Knives]

Nice looking design, functional and good lines. I like it!


My only suggestion is that you probably don't want to grind out the notch in the ricasso area (there is a name for that ) until after heat treat because it could crack during quench.

 

[Core Knife Co.]

Daniel, thank you.

 

[Core Knife Co.]

I changed up my design a little bit to better fit the jigged and dyed bone I wanted on the handles. I really like the teardrop slip joint I have so I worked that into the handle.

Today I went to a buddies and used his bandsaw to cut the bone. The piece I bought at the pet store wasn't a very good piece and it was hard to for me to even get to flat pieces out of it. Live and learn.

I also drilled my holes and cut out the blade. Thanks to Erin for inviting me over and giving me a piece of 1080. I really appreciate you bro!

After a few minutes on the grinder I had knocked most of the rough edges off and had the basic shape. I still need to go over it and clean up the rest of the shape with a file. It has some pretty rough areas that need some attention.

I managed to completely ruin one of my handles on the sander. I'll have to head back to the feed store and get another peanut butter filled bone. My dog will be happy. I messed around with some different ways to do the jigging. Since I really have no clue what I'm doing. I went pretty deep thinking that would allow me the opportunity to go back and sand and polish once I get it dyed and mounted on the knife.

Here is the one I didn't totally ruin.

Michael

 

[lonepine]

A little bit bigger blade, huh? I think it will be more generally useful than the previous design (which was pretty darn nice on its own).

I'm really liking the way your jigging looks. What did you use to do that with? Could you show us how you're doing it? Since it looks like all you did was make indentations in the bone I'm tempted to think, "how hard can that be?". Probably a lot more difficult than a person would think.

Hmmm, I was just wondering, when it comes time to glue it to the tang how will you clamp it without damaging it? How will you keep epoxy from seeping out of the holes and getting all over it?

- LonePine
AKA Paul Meske, Wisconsin

 

[james terrio]

You're off to a great start with a smart design and an intelligent approach to the whole ordeal. Keep it up, you're doing very well.

 

[JasonSCarter]

Great design and good start! A little trick when you go to heat treat it, is to use a line of kosher salt on the blade, when it starts melting fast your at about 1500F (+/- 25F)

Jason

 

[Core Knife Co.]

lonepine, I just used a dremel tool with a button type bit and started carving the holes. I want the jigging more subtle at the edges, but I figured that would be taken care of when it comes type to sand and shape the handle. Then again, I'm making most of this up on the fly so there is really no telling until I get started. The one remaining scale is still in the gasoline. I'm going to go ahead and dye it as a practice piece. I'll take more photos when I start the next set.

James, I appreciate the comments. My already high appreciation for you makers is even higher now. This is really difficult. The choil ended up much larger than I wanted because I couldn't get the shape right. Live and learn.

Jason, thank you for the tip. I was out today looking for an old brake drum so I can make a forge. That looks to be a pretty good method for an inexpensive backyard forge.

 

[USMCSergeant]

I can't wait to watch this unfold, looks really good already.

 

[lonepine]

Quote: "The choil ended up much larger than I wanted because I couldn't get the shape right. Live and learn."

When I saw your blank in post #9 I was going to suggest that you open up that area. It looked "cramped" to my eye, but I figured it would fix itself as you smoothed it out, and if not, that would be fine too. If a 1" sanding drum can't fit into it to smooth it out, it's too small.

It's coming along fine.

- LonePine
AKA Paul Meske, Wisconsin

 

[Daniel Fairly Knives]

Looking good so far.

 

[Core Knife Co.]

I completely junked up my first attempt at filing the bevel. I love a nice convex edge so I wasn't real worried about keeping a true flat grind from the spine to the edge but I just destroyed it. I was doing okay at the main bevel however I tried to file a swedge into the tip and trashed it. That wasn't the worst part though. For some reason I went crazy with the rat tail file and went all the way form the edge to the spine. It looked terrible.

I didn't have much steel left from the stick that Erin game me so I had to shorten it substantially. Still, I like it. It's going to look good with the bone.

I also have (2) questions, who should I send this out to for heat treatment? I was going to try and do it myself but it's just not feasible at this time. I have plans to take a trip over to my uncles and were going to make a small butane forge but in the meantime I would like to send this one out and have it done.

And, I left about a 1/16" of an inch at the blade edge, is this too much or should I take off more material and get it closer to and edge?

Here is the new blade. I love the look of rustic blades and have been trying to keep a traditional look.

Here is the material I left at the edge. Too thick or good for heat treatment?

A teaser of my scales. I really tried to get a vintage look to it. I haven't polished it or anything yet.

The blade I went file happy on and scraped.

Thank you for looking.

 

[Seals]

You're doing a awesome job man,keep it going.:thumbupont forget the lanyard hole.

 

[Core Knife Co.]

Thanks Seals, I appreciate it.

So on top of wondering who is recommended with regard to heat treating I also have a quick question on jimping. Should I wait until after heat treat?

 

[jonnymac44]

Thanks Seals, I appreciate it.

So on top of wondering who is recommended with regard to heat treating I also have a quick question on jimping. Should I wait until after heat treat?

That blade is coming along nicely!:thumbup:

What did you use to dye the bone? I read something about gasoline, but was there some type of dye added to it? I really like the colors you got on that scale!

As far as heat treating goes, look up Peters Heat Treat in Meadville, PA. They are on the net, and they have an excellent cutlery department. Brad Stallsmith is the head of the cutlery department. Look him up and he will take care of you.

As far as jimping goes, look into a checkering file, such as the ones they have here: http://www.knifemaking.com/Default.asp

You definitely want to do your jimping BEFORE heat treat. It's a bear to even drill a hole in hardened steel, let alone cut jimping into a blade by hand.

Keep up the pics, it's looking good!