First knife

[whoisit]

I am not sure where to start on all this so I guess I will tell a little about me and what I want to make. I am about 40 and have always liked working with metal. I amnot an engineer. I was looking for a knife to buy but nobody makes one the way I want it so I decided I will just make it. I have used heat with an anvil and hammer to make a cold steel chisel. I tempered then sanded and polished to a mirror finish. So I know it is work. So what do I want?

I want to make a knife for general work more of a tool not a weapon. I want it to hold an edge because a dull knife is worthless. But I want it to be thick and strong enough to pry with. I was thinking about a blunt tip dive knife but just without the line cutting hook, serrated edge and the metal cap to bang on the tank. I have read through this site but it just has me confused so I thought I would just ask for opinions. So here are my questions:

What steel would you use? Why?
Would you grind or forge? Why?
How would you harden and temper?
What am I not smart enough to ask?

 

[Overmountain]

Welcome.

All your questions are covered in the stickies at the top of this subforum. Aside from that I am sure the count will be along to drop his thorough 'must read' post.

Personally I think a dive style knife like you mention, more like an EOD knife the way you describe it, is very specialized and not much good outside of those areas. A good bushcraft oriented blade will pry pretty well if needed and they are generally robust. They are also a more useful knife all around. Look toward those designs maybe. Personally I use a prying tool to pry with and a knife for knife things...

But mostly, I just wanted to say welcome to the fray.

-Eric

 

[Triought]

Welcome.

All your questions are covered in the stickies at the top of this subforum. Aside from that I am sure the count will be along to drop his thorough 'must read' post.

Personally I think a dive style knife like you mention, more like an EOD knife the way you describe it, is very specialized and not much good outside of those areas. A good bushcraft oriented blade will pry pretty well if needed and they are generally robust. They are also a more useful knife all around. Look toward those designs maybe. Personally I use a prying tool to pry with and a knife for knife things...

But mostly, I just wanted to say welcome to the fray.

-Eric

Yeah the mini crowbars they have out now that are pocket sized are great for prying things. +1 to the bushcraft being a great all around knife.

 

[whoisit]

Thanks for the replies. I tried looking through stickies but they are all condensed and I just got confused. The knives you described are what I used in the past. I want to modify the blade to help me. It will not be a pry bar just no tip to break off, a bit thicker. I mention the prying because my only experience tempering was a cold steel chisel and that would be too brittle. So I was looking more for opinions than facts. There is more than one way to skin a cat and there are even more ways to mess it up. My plan for now is to go down buy some steel, turn it red then start hammering until I like what I see. Then I will start messing with the hardening and temper. Then I will come on here and have people tell me how I messed up. I am not trying to make money. I am just a disabled vet trying to have a knife that helps me with the way I have to use a knife. That is why nobody makes a knife the way I want it. I can do just about anything by modifying tools. So I am not asking for designs. You can use two hands to do things so you do not understand what I need in a knife.

To answer my own questions:
What steel would you use? Why? The kind that I can find. Because I have learn by trial and error anyway.
Would you grind or forge? Why? I would forge. Because I like to hit things with a hammer and use fire to create things.
How would you harden and temper? I will just use an oxy acetylene and look at the colors as it heats up and learn by trial and error.
What am I not smart enough to ask? I wish I knew.

 

[Triought]

To answer my own questions:
What steel would you use? Why? The kind that I can find. Because I have learn by trial and error anyway.
Would you grind or forge? Why? I would forge. Because I like to hit things with a hammer and use fire to create things.
How would you harden and temper? I will just use an oxy acetylene and look at the colors as it heats up and learn by trial and error.
What am I not smart enough to ask? I wish I knew.

On one of the stickies, I'll try to hunt it down, they talk about how to tell if something is case hardened or if something is high carbon steel by how it sparks (Long sparks with not many bursts is case hardened and not great for a knife on average, short sparks with lots of bursts is carbon steel), if you are going to use found metal that will be very handy. I'll post it here once I find it.

Also if you just want to buy some metal so you know what you are working with Aldo (http://newjerseysteelbaron.com/ he is on these forums) and Jantz (http://www.knifemaking.com/) both are good sellers of steel. Then you will know exactly what you are using which also would allow you to know how hard you can expect the material to get with a good heat treatment.

 

[12345678910]

The Count's Standard Reply to New Knifemakers V35

The answer to a student is different than to a retired machinist
With members worldwide, you may have a local supplier, hammerin or neighbour.
Join our community;fill out your profile with location (Country, State, City), age, education, employment and hobbies so we get a sense of where and who you are.


The basics in the simplest terms
Absolute Cheapskate Way to Start Making Knives-Printable PDF
http://www.2shared.com/document/hk4wQruA/Absolute_Cheapskate_Way_to_Sta.html


Web Tutorials
Detailed instructions http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=694673

Things I Advise New Makers Against-Printable PDF http://www.mediafire.com/?8og1ix21j9dcz4n

Handle Tutorial - Nick Wheeler-PDF http://www.mediafire.com/?02ra4do6xyzayeq
http://www4.gvsu.edu/triert/cache/articles/nw1/scales1.htm

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...Wheeler-s-Steel-*-Stuck-in-the-metal-with-you
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/956343-Damascus-integral-tag-along

Bob Egnath how to http://www.engnath.com/manframe.htm

Books
A list of books and videos http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9435307&postcount=43

BladeForums - E-books or Google books http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=603203

Books I like:
David Boye-Step by Step Knifemaking
Tim McCreight-Custom Knifemaking: 10 Projects from a Master Craftsman
Clear, well organized, available and inexpensive.


Forging Books:
Lorelei Sims-The Backyard Blacksmith - A modern book with colour photos - forging - no knifemaking.

Jim Hrisoulas
The Complete Bladesmith: Forging Your Way to Perfection
The Pattern-Welded Blade: Artistry in Iron
The Master Bladesmith: Advanced Studies in Steel

Machine Shop Basics -Books:
Elementary Machine Shop Practice-Printable PDF Http://www.archive.org/download/elementarymachin00palmrich/elementarymachin00palmrich.pdf

The Complete Practical Machinist-Printable -1885-PDF http://ia700309.us.archive.org/6/items/completepractic00rosegoog/completepractic00rosegoog.pdf
Right Click and save

The $50 knife Shop-not recommended
Great title, but NOT gospel.
Forging is NOT necessary; file and grind (stock removal)

Forget the "Goop Quench" It's Bullsh*t
Back when they used whale oil, it was still liquid oil
Use a commercial quench oil & match oil speed to steel type;
Grocery store canola oil works for some steels like 1084

Junkyard steel requires skill and experience to identify and heat treat
Forget Lawnmower blades and railroad spikes, start with a new known steel
Good heat treating needs accurate temperature control and full quench
Proper steel like 1084FG from Aldo is inexpensive and quench in Canola

Cable damascus is an advanced project has no place in a beginner’s book

The grinders are the best thing about this book, but 2x72” belt grinders plans are now free on the web


Videos

Don't be this guy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEOTtslHARQ

Heat Treating Basics Video-downloadable
Right click and save this. Watch it once a day for 10 days http://www.archive.org/download/gov.ntis.ava08799vnb1/ava08799vnb1_512kb.mp4

Safety-video
Right click and save this. Watch it once a day for 10 days http://www.howtomakeaknife.net/FreeStuff/SafetyVideo.wmv

Many knifemaking videos are available, some better than others

The best beginner videos I have seen:
“Steve Johnson-Making a Sub-Hilt Fighter”

"Ed Caffrey - Basic Bladesmithing-Full DVD-ISO"

“Custom Knife Sheaths -Chuck Burrows - Wild Rose”
Paul Long has 2 videos, his sheath work & videos are fantastic and recommended, but more advanced-with inlays, tooling and machine stitching

Green Pete's Free Video
Making a Mora bushcraft knife, stock removal, hand tools, neo tribal / unplugged heat treat
Use a piece of known 1084 steel, not a file. This as an example of doing it by hand with few tools
"Green Pete" posted it free
Be sure to look at the other titles I mentioned too - spend some time searching knifemaking torrents

Greenpete Knifemaking Basics-on TPB
http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/499...femaking_Basics_-_Make_a_Mora_Bushcraft_Knife

How to download that video
http://www.utorrent.com/help/guides/beginners-guide

Videos for rent,read the reviews, Some good, some bad, expect to wait months and there have been no new videos in years.
http://smartflix.com/store/category/9/Knifemaking


Knife Design:
Think thin, simple and fixed
Forget swords, saw-teeth, guthooks, crazy grinds and folders for your first knife

Look at hundreds of photos
Lloyd Harding drawings, Loveless book & Bob Engnath Patterns
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=603203

Bob Engnath Patterns PDF http://www.mediafire.com/?qgx7yebn77n77qx

Start with a drawing and post it, we love photos
French curves, graph paper and erasers are vital tools
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_bHFtVNs9tWA/TEj5Quiq1ZI/AAAAAAAAAI0/rn2EoHoXpVc/s1600/The+French+Curve.jpg

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1147466-How?p=13120810#post13120810

Then a cardboard cutout template & with handles, pins and such
Use playdough to shape a comfortable handle, good handles are not flat

How to post a photo
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...AL-Displaying-your-photographs-on-BladeForums



Draw Filing Demonstration
YouTube video -Draw Filing-for a flat finish http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dec78RQsokw

Nick Wheeler- Hand sanding 101 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4I4x4QLpfnk

Steel
The “welding steel” at Home Depot / Lowes is useless for knives
Forget about lawnmower blades ,files, railroad spikes and other unknown junkyard steels
For the work involved, it is very cheap to buy and use a known good steel
You will spend more money on sandpaper or soda pop than you will for steel

If you send out for heat treating, you can use
Oil quenched O1, 1095, 1084
Or air quenched A2, CM154, ATS34, CPM154, 440C, Elmax plus many others.

For heat treating yourself with minimal equipment, find Eutectoid steel and quench in Canola oil.
1084FG sold by Aldo Bruno is formulated for Knifemaking, Cheap & made for DIY heat-treat.
http://njsteelbaron.com/
Phone # 862-203-8160
His telephone service is better than his website.

Suppliers List
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=699736

Heat Treating
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9143684&postcount=7

You can send blades out for heat treating at $10 or $15 per blade for perfect results

Air Hardening Stainless Steel Only
Buck Pau Bos -Be sure to check the Shipping and Price tabs
http://www.buckknives.com/index.cfm?event=bio.paulBos#
http://www.texasknife.com/vcom/privacy.php#services

Oil Hardening Carbon Steels and Air Hardening Stainless Steel
http://www.petersheattreat.com/cutlery.html
http://www.knifemaker.ca/ (Canadian)

FAQ's
http://www.hypefreeblades.com/faq.html

1095 is a bad choice for a beginner with limited equipment to HT themselves
1095 is "Hypereutectioid" and needs precise temperature control and proper fast quench oil Like Parks 50 or Houghton K
Kevin Cashen - 1095 - hypereutectoid steel
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/673173-Working-the-three-steel-types

If you are sending one or 2 knives out for heat treatment, use 154-CM or CPM-154 CPM-s35vn Elmax, and ship it out to TKS -Texas Knifemaker Supply
It's the cheapest way to do 1 or 2 due to minimum charges


Quenchants for Oil hardening steel
Forget the Goop Quench and Motor oil, especially used oil

Use commercial quench oil & match oil speed to the steel type
Explanation and classification oil speeds
http://knifedogs.com/showthread.php?28197-Hardening-II-Quenching

Grocery store canola oil works well enough for your first knife-if you use the right steel like 1084

Brine and water are cheap for "water hardening" steels W1 and 1095, but use fast oils Parks 50 & Houghton Houghto Quench K
If you use water or brine, expect a broken blade

Hot steel beats plastic, Don't quench in a plastic pail

Glue – Epoxy
Use new slow setting 30 min high strength epoxy to attach handles and seal out moisture
Slow epoxy is stronger and gives you time to work
prep, measure, mix are key in glueing.
Surface Prep is vital, drill tang holes/ grind a hollow, roughen the surfaces with abrasive or blasting is best
Ensure the surface is clean including fingerprints, wear vinyl or nitrile gloves
Use Acetone or Blasting
Don't over-clamp a “glue starved joint” is weak - adhesive is squeezed out

West Systems G Flex http://www.westsystem.com/ss/g-flex-epoxy/
Find it locally http://www.westsystem.com/ss/where-to-buy/
Brownell's Acraglas
JB Weld-leaves a grey line


Grinder / Tools

Hand Tools
You can do it by hand with files and abrasive like the Green Pete video.
Use 1084 instead of a file, spheroid annealed steel is butter soft

Stacy - 10 Tools
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1049666-Ten-Tools?p=11983527#post11983527

Filing jigs
http://www.flemingknives.com/imagesPrime/FileStation/KPicB007.jpg
Http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8486/8152684286_312b9fc8da_b.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9iNDRwwBQQ#t=330

Grinders
A professional three or four wheel 2x72 is worth it
In my opinion, variable speed and a small wheel attachment are essential on a good grinder.
Tracking problems are usually solved with belt tension. It needs to be way tighter than you first think.

Entry Level Grinders
Sears Craftsman 2x42 belt grinder
Low Speed Modification Craftsman 2x42 belt grinder http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qfYT_m2Tw0


Commercial Production 2 x 72” Belt Grinder Reviews
http://www.prometheanknives.com/shop-techniques-3/grinders


DIY 2 x 72” Belt Grinders

KMG Clone Free Plans
http://www.metalwebnews.com/manuals/knife-grinder.pdf

NWG No Weld Grinder $25 plans
http://usaknifemaker.com/plans-for-the-no-weld-grinder-sander-nearly-50-pages.html

EERF Grinder (EERF =“Free” backwards)
http://www.wilmontgrinders.com/Pages/EERFGrinder.aspx
http://blindhogg.com/blueprints.html
http://polarbearforge.com/grinder_kit.html

What Belts to buy?
Every maker has a different preference, new belts come out all the time, search for recent threads.
Ceramic, trizact and structured belts are expensive and have long life. Aluminium oxide are cheap and wear quickly
Some belts have rigid backing, J-flex have soft backing and can blend curves.
Blaze and Cubitron are popular


VFD Variable Speed made simple

Step pulleys are not as cheap as you may think
Maska steel pulleys are good, plus shaft, bearings, belt

It all adds up to 1/2 the price of a sealed class NEMA 4 VFD like a KB Electronics KBAC-27D

I like direct drive with no belts, a VFD and 3 phase motor for about $200 over the price of the step pulleys with fine instant control.

NEMA 1 VFD’s will keep your fingers out, but the metallic dust intrusion will smoke it.


Motor
3 phase 220v 1.5 HP motor, TEFC, frame 56 or 56C,
RPM is up to you some use 1700 RPM at double speed.
Make sure it has a footed base for the KMG and NWG, or a C flange face mount for Bader, Bee, Wilton and GIB styles.
I get them on ebay, even with paying $100 for shipping to Canada I save $ on used motors

The 1.5 HP combination is the most common
It allows you to plug into any 110vac, 15 amp outlet.
A 2 HP motor requires a 220vac input.


VFD
KBAC-27D
http://www.kbelectronics.com/Variable_Speed_AC_Drives_Inverters/AC_Drives_NEMA_4X.html
http://www.kbelectronics.com/manuals/kbda_manual.pdf
Use the Distributor Locator to find a local source, online sources may be cheaper.

There are cheaper units, but the only VFD I have found that runs a 1.5 HP motor on a 110v 15 amp input is the KBAC-27D

It is NEMA 4, sealed from metal dust

Good community and company support, manuals, hook-up diagrams, photos and settings.
If you buy a bargain vfd, you're stuck with a chinglish manual and ridiculous programming.

Travis W reports running a 2 HP on a 110v circuit, but I haven’t tried it.

Hookup is simple
http://www.beaumontmetalworks.com/VS-setup.html


Safety Equipment
Protect your -Eyes, Ears, Fingers, and Lungs – remove jewellery and use safety gear.

Respirators
Chronic lung disease and cancer really suck the joy out of life.

If you can't breathe, nothing else matters.

Wearing a mask and glasses on the top of your head doesn't Count.

The minimum I would consider are silicone half masks with a P100 Filter
The silicone masks are softer and fit better
3M 7500
http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/mediaw...Ox_Uev7qe17zHvTSevTSeSSSSSS--&fn=CH7500FP.pdf

and North 7700
http://www.amazon.com/North-Safety-770030L-Silicone-Respirator/dp/B002C08YCW
http://www.amazon.com/North-7580P100-P100-Particulate-Cartridge/dp/B000UH6PSE/ref=pd_bxgy_hi_img_b.

Use a VOC & P100 combo cartridge for acetone and glue fumes.
Prefilters can snap over the main filter for longer life.
There are 3 sizes of face piece, get fitted in person

Shave, also test the fit every time.

For beards
3M PAPR
Resp-O-Rator
3m Breathe Easy
Trend Airshield Pro
Air Cap II


Search

This searches BF well.
http://www.google.com/cse/home?cx=011197018607028182644:qfobr3dlcra

Get rich making knives ?
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...knife-making-worth-it?p=11980504#post11980504

Visit a shop in person
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1166688-How-to-get-a-shop-invite

V35 July 23, 2014

 

[stezann]

If You don't want to read all the good info (but it is recomended with good reason), and just start doing a knife, i would strongly recommend to start with AISI 1080 or 1084, because it is the steel most suitable for do it yourself heat treating and forging, and still give very good results.
Try not to overheat in the forge, bright red is good, yellow is too high.
The shape and blade thickness will give you the strenght, so shape accordingly up to yuor desired tasks. The thin side of the apple allows for a good cutter, the thick is for prying...and not so good cutter.
Don't anneal in ashes/vermiculite... better air cooling from dull red couple of times and you should be able to file and drill.
In heating, shoot for a red even color for the blade, test often with a hand held magnet, and when the magnet doesn't stick anymore heat just a little more and quench in prewarmed canola oil, peanut oil or sunflower oil...NOT AUTOMOTIVE OILS... move the blade under the oil as you where slicing constantly. Check with a file, that if everything went well shouldn't be able to dig into the blade.
now temper to 400 °F and that's it.
good luck

 

[whoisit]

Thanks very much. I would love to read through all the information but I am more of a hands on learner. I will try to read through some of that when I get a chance.

 

[Fletch Helical]

What steel would you use? Why?Depends on what you are interested in. If you like stainless CPM 154 or ATS 34 are both good steels that aren't too expensive, if you want a high carbon 1084 I like stainless because it requires less maintenance to prevent rust
Would you grind or forge? Why? Personally grind I don't have a forge or an anvil plus stock removal is "easier" if you've never made a knife IMO
How would you harden and temper?Send it to Peter's Heat treating so I know it's done right and the steel will perform to the best of it's abilities and I also lack the necessary equipment
What am I not smart enough to ask? Ask as you get stuck

Hope that helps

 

[Sgt John]

Thanks very much. I would love to read through all the information but I am more of a hands on learner. I will try to read through some of that when I get a chance.

Even though you are a hands-on learner, I would highly recommend reading through as much as you can before you start/as you begin. Some of the principles and theories that have been tried and tested need to be read through to ensure your practices follow suit. I know you may not want to sit down for hours and read, but honestly this will help you make the best blades that you can with the tool set and other materials that you currently have.

 

[Willie71]

Thanks for the replies. I tried looking through stickies but they are all condensed and I just got confused. The knives you described are what I used in the past. I want to modify the blade to help me. It will not be a pry bar just no tip to break off, a bit thicker. I mention the prying because my only experience tempering was a cold steel chisel and that would be too brittle. So I was looking more for opinions than facts. There is more than one way to skin a cat and there are even more ways to mess it up. My plan for now is to go down buy some steel, turn it red then start hammering until I like what I see. Then I will start messing with the hardening and temper. Then I will come on here and have people tell me how I messed up. I am not trying to make money. I am just a disabled vet trying to have a knife that helps me with the way I have to use a knife. That is why nobody makes a knife the way I want it. I can do just about anything by modifying tools. So I am not asking for designs. You can use two hands to do things so you do not understand what I need in a knife.

To answer my own questions:
What steel would you use? Why? The kind that I can find. Because I have learn by trial and error anyway.
Would you grind or forge? Why? I would forge. Because I like to hit things with a hammer and use fire to create things.
How would you harden and temper? I will just use an oxy acetylene and look at the colors as it heats up and learn by trial and error.
What am I not smart enough to ask? I wish I knew.

I would encourage you to rethink this a bit. The biggest component in the performance of a knife is the heat treat. If you are doing your own heat treat, use 1070-1084 steel. It is the simplest and most forgiving to heat treat. Second most important is geometry. What looks cool to some members (I have no idea what you like yet, so not a personal comment) will not cut well. We can help with all of that. How about posting a drawing of what you want in your knife. We can offer feedback on things you might not have considered. A few members have followed this process recently and ended up with exceptionally good first knives.

 

[Patrickknives]

What steel would you use? Why? I would use A2, good steel for a prybar type of knife, 1/4 thick
Would you grind or forge? Why? Stock removal until you get up to forge,
How would you harden and temper? send to a company in the stickies, texas knife is good.
What am I not smart enough to ask? Read the stickies, there is a lot of good information there, some of the links may not work or apply but this will be very helpful and same a lot of time and effort in the long run

 

[Overmountain]

Thanks very much. I would love to read through all the information but I am more of a hands on learner. I will try to read through some of that when I get a chance.

I'm a hands-on learner too, but the stickies and the count's standard reply arenan absolute must read. Hands-on knly works if you have either A) a lot of reference material with pics and videos to refer back to, or B) even better, a learned smith/maker standing behind you to answer questions.

Getting a result from trial and error is fine if you want to waste time and steel, but personally I like to set a goal, follow a specified routine (either one gleaned from another maker or one I conjure up from reference materials and experience) and arrive at a predicted result. It is when I don't arrive at that specified result that I can go back through the routine and LEARN from discovering where I fouled up.

Good luck!

-Eric