first sharpening video! (and water stone review)

[Magnaminous_G]

My Nagura stones arrived today, and I used my water stones for the first time. I've never made a sharpening video or a bench stone review before, so I decided to kill two birds with one stone (no pun intended). Comments and suggestions highly welcome.

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[Jason B.]

Will have to watch them all later when I get home. How do you like the stones?

 

[BluntCut MetalWorks]

Nice videos Mag. Good steady hands/arms movements and narrations. I watched all videos (skipped some parts), want to see how those waterstones, knifenut recommended, sound like & perf wise.

Hopefully you don't mind my pointer - use edge leading instead of trailing strokes at the end of 1K & 6K, your edge would be cleaner. I noticed the edge burr grabbed/teared paper at each grit tests. Worth a try, take that knife do 5 leading strokes per side to 6K stone then slice paper, then strop, then slice paper.

 

[Jason B.]

Leading strokes will impact the edge with abrasive and dull the apex. You WILL make a sharper edge with trailing strokes.

 

[BluntCut MetalWorks]

Leading strokes will impact the edge with abrasive and dull the apex. You WILL make a sharper edge with trailing strokes.

Respectfully disagreed however you're doing this professionally so your assertions carry more weight. Maybe I get lucky with result from using lead stroke approach, my edges are sharp (after 4K finished, edge thiness is below 1um). Oh well, Mag - not much to lose if you decide to try edge leading strokes.

 

[Magnaminous_G]

Will have to watch them all later when I get home. How do you like the stones?

Absolutely love them. I especially like the 6k Arashiyama. This was my first time sharpening with Japanese water stones and my first time sharpening with a slurry. It was very smooth and very responsive. I really like the final bevel and edge. It's not mirror, but it's very refined and sharp. I think I actually like that effect better than the mirror polish of ceramic stones.

Nice videos Mag. Good steady hands/arms movements and narrations. I watched all videos (skipped some parts), want to see how those waterstones, knifenut recommended, sound like & perf wise.

Hopefully you don't mind my pointer - use edge leading instead of trailing strokes at the end of 1K & 6K, your edge would be cleaner. I noticed the edge burr grabbed/teared paper at each grit tests. Worth a try, take that knife do 5 leading strokes per side to 6K stone then slice paper, then strop, then slice paper.

Thanks for the kind words. I've always heard to finish with edge trailing strokes for the reasons knifenut pointed out.

 

[BluntCut MetalWorks]

Out of curiosity and since I need to remove some small chips from my Endura vg-10, I sharpened it with Gesshin 1K (splash&go) waterstone finished with 10 edge leading strokes (wiped clean, nothing else).

Push cut newsprint tests:
1) smooth - along the newsprint grain (push from top to bottom of page)
2) smooth but noisy - 45 degree
3) passed noisy but didn't catch or tear - cross grain

Cheap usb img captured -

with 1mm line.

Clean edge is the most important objective as I progress toward finer grit. btw - Endura vg-10 burrs known to be tought to remove.

As for trailing strokes, I've tendency end up with a micro-wire, obviously my lack of skills for this approach.

 

[mrdeus]

Interesting videos. I hope you get some answers to the questions you mention as I would be interested in hearing those as well. I'm looking to buy the same stones. The chosera stones feel a bit pricy for me as a beginner, and I saw these stones recommended (I think it was your old topic, where knifenut recommended them).

I almost bought the stones last Friday, but when I saw the shipping cost I thought "I might as well buy something more". I'm assuming you got the stones at cktg. Do you feel that the stone holder is good/necessary? What were the nagura stones called? You used one synthetic and one natural. They only seem to have a natural nagura at cktg. Are there different kinds of nagura stones for different water stones or is it more of a one-size-fits-all?

 

[db]

As I agree that perfectly flat is not neded. I myself do need them flat. I have a real problem if the stones are dished. And once they get a dish into them it takes alot to reflatten. Great job on the videos

 

[Magnaminous_G]

As I agree that perfectly flat is not neded. I myself do need them flat. I have a real problem if the stones are dished. And once they get a dish into them it takes alot to reflatten. Great job on the videos

Thank you for your kind words. It was a lot of work setting things up and making the vids, but now I see why jdavis likes making them so much. It's a real joy.

... Do you feel that the stone holder is good/necessary? What were the nagura stones called? You used one synthetic and one natural. They only seem to have a natural nagura at cktg. Are there different kinds of nagura stones for different water stones or is it more of a one-size-fits-all?

The stone holder is top notch. My countertop is Corian, and even when wet, the holder would not move. It is very solid, raises the stone just the right amount, and holds the stone firmly in place. I highly recommend it. As for the Nagura stones, the synthetic one is a King, and I bought the natural one from Dilegno wood supplies. From what I've understood, when it comes to Nagura stones, the benefits of building a slurry start showing up at higher grit water stones (4k and above, I believe). The natural chalk stone works by breaking itself down in the slurry during the sharpening and actually polishing under and over the bevel with your sharpening strokes. As a result, it has the polishing effect of a much higher grit stone than the actual stone you are working on.

 

[Magnaminous_G]

As I've looked at the primary bevel more today, I've noticed something interesting. In a bright light source, it seems like you can see the grain structure of the steel to some degree. It's hard to describe, but it's like the steel is "naked." This is interesting to me because ceramics have a very different effect; they leave a reflective, mirror polish on steel. But that mirror polish is the same no matter what steel you are using. I feel like the water stones actually reveal the grain of the steel better, even though they don't polish to a mirror finish.

 

[BluntCut MetalWorks]

As I've looked at the primary bevel more today, I've noticed something interesting. In a bright light source, it seems like you can see the grain structure of the steel to some degree. It's hard to describe, but it's like the steel is "naked." This is interesting to me because ceramics have a very different effect; they leave a reflective, mirror polish on steel. But that mirror polish is the same no matter what steel you are using. I feel like the water stones actually reveal the grain of the steel better, even though they don't polish to a mirror finish.

See post #78 - http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...A-very-quick-and-close-look-at-steeling/page4

 

[Jason B.]

So I watched them and even took notes so I didn't forget any pointers. You did well however you spent far too much time for the blade you were sharpening. The time on the 1k was fine but for the 6k it was about 45min too much. With a softer steel it should have finished up within 5 minutes and no slurry was needed.

I know why your tip is round

First thing I noticed was lack of visual inspection and inspection that was done was too far apart in the process. 5-10 strokes check and switch sides. You want to work to the apex evenly and not all at once on one side. The deburr block is not needed and should not be used with the 6k stone and technically after the 1k its not doing anything because you are removing the 1k burr with the 6k stone. When used after the 6k you are causing damage to the edge that is affecting the sharpness.

The specs in the stone have a name that's eluding me now but its nothing to worry about, its common. You are probably seeing blue dots in the surface?

The 1k stone,
Because of the steel you could use a synthetic nagura to start a slurry to prevent loading to some degree. Because of the larger grit size the synthetic nagura will not harm the finish. You will notice stainless and softer metals will load the surface of the 1k with shiny flakes of metal, this is normal. Harder metals and carbon steels tend to produce LOTS of mud with minimal to no loading. Water usage though good should be less with the 1k it actually works best when the surface is dry. Not a dry stone but a dry surface if that makes sense. When "dry" and medium pressure applied the mud will form rapidly and work to better "polish" the bevel and lube the surface for grinding. The down side to using more pressure is the risk of gouging increases.

Do more edge trailing strokes at the finish and do not switch back to leading strokes. I noticed you did this often. Some other things you may notice with the stone is with prolonged sharpening and slurry formation you get "speed bumps" or Ridges in the stone surface. You can feel these and its something I cannot explain though does not seem to impart any negative effects.

The 6k stone,
You did right to flatten and remove the writing, it should be done with all new stones unless experience says otherwise. The slurry/mud formation needs to look glossy as does the surface, any less water and the mud starts to clump and not flow, too much water and it destroys the mud and washes it away. Once the slurry has been formed it must be used to the end and the same goes for the swarf loading on the surface. Removing the swarf or re-creating the mud/slurry brings you back to the start and all refinement from the grit breaking down will be lost. The mud can be used to speed up the polishing in the start but its typically for larger bevels, for such small bevels on a soft steel no mud is needed. When no mud is used the stone will load fast and produce a high luster polish. Remember to not touch the loaded swarf as this again will change the scratch pattern you worked so hard to refine.

The amount of mud you formed was good though you spent too much time making it. Basically grinding down the stone too much. Wet the nagura before you start forming the slurry and as needed while rubbing the stone. Again it should only be done once or you are starting the polishing process over each time you make a new mud. If the mud becomes too dry (which it will) add ONE drop of water at a time to re-wet and not destroy the mud you worked to produce. If you wet too much then your SOL.

Final thoughts,

You will find better edge trailing consistency if you use the MC style where he drags to the tip then flows to the heel, I didn't understand it at first but after some trial and error I realized it helps to set the bevel in place on the stone. Simply starting at the tip can make it difficult to acquire the correct angle. I mention this because with the last macro shot you had a microbevel to one side.

Forget the deburr block its hurting your results.

When testing on newsprint after the 6k the burr was too large and affected the cutting performance. Notice how the ability of the edge to cleanly slice the paper changed with each cut?

 

[Magnaminous_G]

Hi knifenut,

Thank you so much for taking the time to watch my videos. I know you put a lot of real thought into addressing all the questions I asked and to addressing other areas, as well, and I really, really appreciate it. I’ve already read through your response several times and will be reading it more.

I definitely should be inspecting more often (every 5-10 strokes and then switch, as you mentioned) and not spending any more time than I need to on a stone. Otherwise I’m just wasting my time (and wearing out my stone) as well as working for too long on one side. Thank you for pointing that out!

Your assessment of the deburring block sounds good. If I’m using the stones correctly and correctly apexing the edge, I shouldn’t need to drag it through a deburring block, at all.

You asked about the specks in the green 1K stone. They weren’t blue, they were like… light colored and dark colored, too. But they seem to have sort of disappeared after using the stone. I dunno.

You mentioned that harder metals and carbon steels tend to produce a lot of mud with minimal to no loading on the 1K stone. Thanks for the heads-up and advice. I will definitely be using this stone for different steels in the future, and that helps a lot to know.

You mentioned that I should do more edge trailing strokes at the finish and not switch back to leading strokes. I did do that a lot, I realize. I think I wasn’t satisfied after the edge-trailing strokes, and in retrospect, it’s probably because I didn’t lighten my pressure and finish the general sharpening before moving on the edge-trailing. I’ll be more careful about that in the next sharpening I do.

You advice and thoughts on using the 6K are worth gold. Thank you for this! I was wondering about so many things while I was using it, and you’ve addressed them all and added more points that I didn’t even think about, although now that you mention them, I have seen them before in your videos. I just forgot about them while I was sharpening. I will keep the same slurry for the whole sharpening, just adding drops of water to keep it from drying out. And I will inspect more often to make sure I’m not wasting my time (or my stone). I realize now that by rebuilding the slurry so many times, I was defeating the entire point of building a slurry (which I actually talked about in the video, doh!), which is to let it break down through the sharpening and refine the edge more.



If you don’t mind, I’ve got a few more questions!

1. For the next sharpening, I’ll be sure to not keep splashing water on the 1K stone. I think what you're saying is that since the stone is underwater all the time, just taking it out of its bath will ensure it is plenty “wet” for the whole sharpening. Am I correctly interpreting that?

2. You mentioned that because of the steel being sharpened being a fairly soft stainless, I could use a synthetic nagura to start a slurry to prevent loading to some degree on the 1k. I’m guessing you don’t foresee that being a problem, but you are mentioning it just so that I keep it in mind in case. Am I correctly interpreting that?

3. You mentioned that simply starting at the tip can make it difficult to acquire the correct angle because with the last macro shot I had a micro-bevel to one side. I noticed this, too, even during sharpening, and you can hear me in the vid saying out loud, “Oh, that was too high!” You mentioned the MC style where he drags to the tip then flows to the heel on his edge-trailing strokes. I couldn’t visualize that, so I actually went back and watched it on his DVDs. But he also starts at the tip, so I’m not visualizing. Do you have time to make a video?

Thanks a million again for taking the time to watch my videos and write such a thoughtful response!

Cheers,

Mag

 

[mrdeus]

Bookmarked this topic for future reference

 

[HeavyHanded]

3. You mentioned that simply starting at the tip can make it difficult to acquire the correct angle because with the last macro shot I had a micro-bevel to one side. I noticed this, too, even during sharpening, and you can hear me in the vid saying out loud, “Oh, that was too high!” You mentioned the MC style where he drags to the tip then flows to the heel on his edge-trailing strokes. I couldn’t visualize that, so I actually went back and watched it on his DVDs. But he also starts at the tip, so I’m not visualizing. Do you have time to make a video?

Thanks a million again for taking the time to watch my videos and write such a thoughtful response!

Cheers,

Mag

MC is "feeling it out" as he makes a few light passes at the tip. Once the feel is established its much easier to maintain it for the rest of the bevel. Feedback using an edge trailing motion on a polishing-grade waterstone is very minimal compared to many other forms of finishing, all to easy to fudge the angle. I didn't understand MCs habit of hitting the tip with a few short strokes either. Once I started to experiment with it, became quite clear - you have to try it to understand. This now how I do all my edge trailing, whether on a waterstone or stropping on hardwood or newspaper. In fact it might help mentally to simply think of the final polishing stone work as you would any other stropping activity (assuming you're coming to waterstones from some other form of benchstone and are familiar with stropping).

One other thing I've noticed with my waterstones - the burr should be nearly 100% gone coming off the 1k, this will dramatically minimize the amount of time needed on the polishing stone (and reduce the tendency to make the edge angle larger to eliminate the burr). The 6k is not a grinding stone - does not do a good job of removing burrs or correcting issues left undone with the 1k tho it can - just takes a long time and increases the odds of softening your edge.

MC was kind enough to explain to me some of his thoughts on burr removal, stated he will use an edge leading stroke to finish but only on softer, cheaper steels that just won't give up the ghost using an edge trailing stroke. I took this to heart, and on some of my cheaper knives and low RC machetes I will finish with edge leading, but always go back and apply some edge trailing as a final operation. Unlike most solid bench/whetstones, high grit count waterstones won't raise a burr when used edge trailing as long as pressure is nice and light, but they sometimes have trouble removing the burr. When used for maintenance you get excellent results with just a few edge trailing passes on blades that are starting to dull - no need to go back to the 1k every time.

Another tip - for hard use knives you can smear the mud from your 1k (after grinding a fresh bevel and reducing the burr) on to a piece of newspaper, wrap it around your stone and strop with that. Makes a great EDU edge and is extremely fast to produce.

Have fun, keep the updates coming.

 

[Jason B.]

Questions,

1. If you take the stone out of the tub and let the surface water soak-in where it no longer has standing water on its surface then you would be working it dry. When I use my coarser Nubatama stones in my videos I speak of how they work "dry".

2. The mud/slurry can be used in many ways one of which is to aid in the grinding. The 1k will overtake whatever nagura particles that are put on the stone. This loose abrasive on the surface helps to bring up more abrasive and not deposit metal on the surface. As you work with more knives you will notice this more and how the stone changes its working properties. In other words, I think you get it.

3. Look closely at his technique, you will notice he starts shy of the tip in the belly and pulls to the edge of the stone raising the handle and finding the tip. Once at the tip he then changes direction and continues to the heel of the blade. It's a very slight action but one that will help greatly until you get a better feel for the bevel. Let me know if its still not making sense.

I will have a vid up by this weekend most likely, got a big ole kitchen knife to sharpen. I will be reviewing several stones including the Arashiyama stones and will demonstrate the technique.

 

[Magnaminous_G]

3. Look closely at his technique, you will notice he starts shy of the tip in the belly and pulls to the edge of the stone raising the handle and finding the tip. Once at the tip he then changes direction and continues to the heel of the blade. It's a very slight action but one that will help greatly until you get a better feel for the bevel. Let me know if its still not making sense.

I will have a vid up by this weekend most likely, got a big ole kitchen knife to sharpen. I will be reviewing several stones including the Arashiyama stones and will demonstrate the technique.

w00t! New video!

I did notice him making a sort of "S" stroke, which I was going to mention but wasn't sure if I was really seeing it correctly. I did think he might have been putting the bevel on below the tip. I'll have to watch again more closely now that you mention it.

You seem to know a lot about Japanese stuff and all the sharpening and knife terms. Have you ever been to Japan?

 

[Jason B.]

Yes, the S curve is it. Its very slight but very usefull.

One day I would like to visit Japan but my knowledge base comes from nearly a year of research before my purchase of the Arashiyama stones and my current workings with Japanese kitchen cutlery.

 

[HeavyHanded]

I've noticed he doesn't use the 'S' move all the time and figured it was to prevent the grind path from becoming parallel or reverse to the cutting edge - as will happen at the tip/belly when edge trailing, esp if you normally keep the edge at an angle to the grind/polish path. In his straight razor video he doesn't use the 'S' at all to speak of. In his "push cutting toilet paper" vid you can see what I'm describing. The 'Outdoor' model he's sharpening only has a little belly = smaller 'S'. Contrast that with this demo - you can see it very clearly at about 2.5 minutes, using a knife with a little more belly = larger S.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5stV_1kID-U

At least I'm pretty sure that's what I'm seeing - hope so 'cause that's how I do it...

It makes a big difference on blades with a lot of curve - more consistent edge all the way to the tip. I barely use it all on knives like Mora and others with a shallow belly, have to really exaggerate on things like Bolo or Panga pattern machetes.