First sword project - need advice

B

BWga

Joined
Mar 15, 2015
Messages
11
I've made some knives before using 440C, and know it's a lot of work. A guild member friend of mine was very complimentary of my efforts, which was very humbling. He did my heat treating, and I was truly amazed at what a difference it can make. I haven't done any knifemaking in quite a while, but the muse has struck again, and it doesn't appear to want to go away. I know the difficulty of making a knife, and the worst part is NOW I want to make a SWORD! I figure it'll probably take me a year to complete it, if I'm lucky, and that it'll take me a LOT of hand sanding/grinding to get the lines to meet up and be dead straight, but I've got nothing better to do with my time now that I'm retired, and I have a concept that's very motivating for me. Maybe I should start with the concept, so you can see (and maybe have a laugh?) what I'm aiming at.

I want to make a Crusader type sword of, basically a hand and a half type. It'll be used as a symbol, hopefully, entirely. I'm thinking of getting a 1/4x2x36" piece of steel to make it with. It'll be 2" wide at the guard, and taper to @ 1/3 of that near the point. I plan to taper it in thickness to about 5/32" or so at the beginning of the crown of the tip. It'll have (at least at this point in the conceptualization) no fuller (?). The handle will (at least at present) be made like I've made my knives, with a full tang, using slabs for the grips on either side. Guard will be pretty simple and @ 6" or so wide, with fleur de lis on each end, and a fleur de lis on the guard. Handle is planned to be white paper micarta, using 3 mosaic pins to represent the Star of Bethlehem, the Cross, and a 3rd 3/16" mosaic with 12 pins surrounding a center hollow tube with black filler, which will represent the 12 apostles and what they taught us keeping sin (the black center) contained. Naturally, this will be a Christian sword, and I plan to donate it to my church. It'll be pretty simple, as swords can go, but I want it to be well made, and useful as a real sword. Immitations simply have no place in a real church, in my mind. Symbolism, though, will always have a place there. The sword itself will represent the cross, as it did for the Crusaders (and yeah, I know there are many claims now about how corrupt some want to believe they were, but I can't swallow that stuff). The three pins, two in the handle and one in the guard) will represent the Trinity, as will the three fleur de lis on the guard and pommel. I want (I think) it to be mirror polished, so that if used in a parade or something, it'll flash like the "Sword of Truth" should shine.

This is the essential ingredients of the master plan, and yeah, I do know this ain't gonna' be easy! Nor will it happen overnight! But as I said, it'd be something to do to keep me occupied in something that might be constructive, and when one of these urges hit, the worst part comes with NOT seeing it to fruition. Any help in getting me from concept to completion would be appreciated.

This is a bit grandiose of me, with my skill levels, but with a lot of care, I think I may just be able to pull it off, at least maybe, and like the robber in the movie Dirty Harry, "I gots ta' know!" So ... here I sit, kind'a consumed really, by an idea that will likely be the greatest challenge I've ever known, but with a willing heart, and a VERY cautious mind, thinking that IF I'm really, Really, REALLY careful, and don't have a time table to answer to, only a standard of quality, then maybe, just MAYBE I can pull this off. What's life without a challenge, after all? And the bigger the challenge, the greater the satisfaction IF I really CAN pull this one off. Only time can or will tell that part of it.

I'm planning on calling it "Trinity." Just seemed to be the right name to me. Not trying to preach to anyone here, but Christ DID say he came into the world NOT to bring peace, but to bring a sword, and I thought it might just be something that might inspire us to become a little more active and vocal in the face of all the opposition and cynicism that surrounds us just because we're often not quite perfect, or fully what we ought to be. I know it'll impress the young. They havent' become cynical yet, and see things quite simply, and are thus easily inspired. It could be used in some ceremonies and plays we put on, too, and in being used, might make it more meaningful to the ones who portray the variouis characters.

I mainly, I think, need help on choosing what alloy steel to use for the blade. At the start, I thought of 5160 or O-1, but now, I'm thinking a stainless would be more appropriate, with that high polish I spoke of. I haven't messed with knife making in a good long while, so am unfamiliar with some of the new alloys. Have a knife with G-10 and S-30V blades, D2 and 440C, and am at least fairly acquainted with those, but reading Jantz's catalong, there are some new (and spendy!) alloys that are kind'a intriguing for this. Need input on that from those who've been there and done that before, and have the experience and knowledge that I lack.

And as to the sheath, I'm thinking a wood one with white leather covering, and stainless fixtures, would be best, but any input on that would be welcome, too. I've never actually made a wooden sheath, so recommendations of type of wood and how to help make it help preserve the blade would be appreciated.

This is an awful lot to ask, I know, and I know many will not have the simple time to respond, and I thank them anyway. I'll take any advice you can offer very appreciatively. Setting off on a quest without a clear idea of where you really want to go doesn't usually make for great results, so I've got to get all the details fixed in my mind before I set myself to work on it, and any suggestions or ideas counter to my current vision would also be appreciated. Thanks to any who can and have time to help me with this.
 
Any self respecting theologian would reject such a gift for their Christian church, even if only in a symbolic gesture. As for Luke22:36, it is most often entirely misread as to intent (and Jesus replies to that effect). Cherry picking scripture is a fools paradise. Read about swords in every chapter of every bible. This section isn't the place to debate it but worth mentioning

As a trinket, and non-weapon, it need not be made to be used as a weapon. Any steel or material at all will do for that.

If making a performance sword of symbolic meaning to you, there are a number of suitable sword steels and a simple internet search for "sword steels" will let you pick and choose after reading about them.

Cheers

GC
 
Regardless of what you want to do with the sword, on to practical matters. What equipment do you have for this project? A 2 x 72" grinder would be nice for such a big project, but unless you have experience, you will need to practice grinding for quite awhile until you get the knack. Personally, I'd start with simpler projects until you have gained experience. A forge would be nice too, but again, it takes time to learn how to forge a big sword, or for that matter, even how to forge a knife. I could go on, but I think you have probably got my point. If you still want to do this, my advice to you is to try to find a knife maker in your area, he could advise you, maybe even give you some lessons if he has time.
 
Well, no problem. And opinions are like ears, everybody's got a couple. I still like the idea. And I'm still intent on pursuing it, whether it pleases anyone else or not. Plus, it's a good challenge. Amazing how anything with a religious content seems to turn people off, especially if it's Christian today, but if I can't find any help here, I have other options. No problem. Don't want help from anyone who's THAT against my little project. Just doesn't seem right to have that kind contribute to it, but thanks anyway.

Sheesh! And I've always found knife folks to be helpful!!!
 
BWga said:
Well, no problem. And opinions are like ears, everybody's got a couple. I still like the idea. And I'm still intent on pursuing it, whether it pleases anyone else or not. Plus, it's a good challenge. Amazing how anything with a religious content seems to turn people off, especially if it's Christian today, but if I can't find any help here, I have other options. No problem. Don't want help from anyone who's THAT against my little project. Just doesn't seem right to have that kind contribute to it, but thanks anyway.

Sheesh! And I've always found knife folks to be helpful!!!
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Most of us are here to talk about steel and sharp pointy things, not superstitious nonsense. Sheesh! LOL
 
ichor said:
Most of us are here to talk about steel and sharp pointy things, not superstitious nonsense. Sheesh! LOL
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That's what I came here for - advice - but only got disparagement of the theme. And you can call it what you will. It's MINE, not yours. Never met with this kind of reaction from knife folks before. Hope it's not typical now?
 
BWga said:
Well, no problem. And opinions are like ears, everybody's got a couple. I still like the idea. And I'm still intent on pursuing it, whether it pleases anyone else or not. Plus, it's a good challenge. Amazing how anything with a religious content seems to turn people off, especially if it's Christian today, but if I can't find any help here, I have other options. No problem. Don't want help from anyone who's THAT against my little project. Just doesn't seem right to have that kind contribute to it, but thanks anyway.

Sheesh! And I've always found knife folks to be helpful!!!
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Talk to your pastor/minister/priest and then understand that while a subjectively noble endeavor and offer to any Christian church, it just doesn't fit in a chapel. There are Christian religious organizations that wear swords but they are not part of a Sunday sermon or any Catholic mass.

There was a fellow that had his dream Christian sword made (christianswords.com), so I am denying no one their heart and soul. I am simply pointing out some realities. There are occasions where swords are part of a marriage but it is not with the church's sword. There is St Joan's sword found at a church but it was a memori morti, not part of the religious proceedings. If you read both before and after the favorite line from Luke, you will see the context and true meanings. He was talking about life metaphorically. Then note him teliing Peter to cease a defense/offense, Peter intent on inflicting harm. The swords are part of the whole angelic benevolence and truth. Indeed lots of swordplayin the Old Testament but remember David had no sword in hand when defeating Goliath.

Modern warfare still uses the word sword when claiming just offense and of course onward Christian soldiers but that refers not to bloodshed but bringing out to all the love of Jesus.

Me? I'm a Methodist minister's kid and to his death we chuckled about my Zen Yiddish leanings.


http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Arlandson/luke_22_36.htm



A sword can mean lots of things to lots of people but a cross is already displayed in a Christian church

Go for it but expect a sermon from your religious leader. I am not, I'm just a soapbox orator of truths I see.

Cheers

GC
 
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BWga said:
That's what I came here for - advice - but only got disparagement of the theme. And you can call it what you will. It's MINE, not yours. Never met with this kind of reaction from knife folks before. Hope it's not typical now?
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Fine. Then don't come here spouting your, 'theme" in a forum which is supposed to be about knives, not the relationship of swords to the cross of Christ, which I find offensive as hell.
 
ichor said:
Fine. Then don't come here spouting your, 'theme" in a forum which is supposed to be about knives, not the relationship of swords to the cross of Christ, which I find offensive as hell.
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Lol. The Church, and indeed western civilization, certainly would not be what it is now if not for the sword. Attila the Hun, the Muslim invasion and successful takeover of a large part of Europe, on and on, oh, it was a mighty fight for a few centuries, wasn't it? Mostly with swords, and mostly in a religious context. The Church grew by the sword, thrived by the sword too. Ignoring the role of the sword in religion is to ignore history. Of course, this is all simply my opinion.
 
Perhaps the fellow would like to share some of his old work. Lots of people have done religious swords but I was concerned from the start of his outline and intent, then emphatically pointing out it is HIS, not ours.

Blade Forums is one of the few bladed forums where there are sections to let off steam and or play with trolls. The sword section aint it (although I'll admit enjoying such play). There are several topics that are sure to sway conversation away from discussing the swords themselves and the OP did it with his very first post, then claimed to be the victim after others have pointed out some suggestions and truths.

Again, I support his wanting to build a sword uniquely his with his own understanding of Christianity and my only concern is his intent to give it to his church.

Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition ;)

Cheers

GC
 
If you're making something that you want to be functional, then don't put "functional sword" and "stainless steel" in the same sentence. You can put a polish on a carbon steel sword if that's what you'd like. 5160 is a perfectly good steel for sword purposes. What are your plans for heat treating? Do you have an oven that large, or were you just going to send it to an outside heat treater?

ichor said:
Most of us are here to talk about steel and sharp pointy things, not superstitious nonsense. Sheesh! LOL
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So... you could talk about the sharp pointy steel thing he wants to make? The symbolism or what he plans to do with it is irrelevant, as you say, yet for some reason you are most insistent upon talking about it.

I also really don't know what a church would do with a sword, but I don't really see any need to disparage his idea.
 
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While it's certainly..something..the one at Christianswords is, to me, ugly. I suppose as artwork, it's suitable enough, but as a sword, I'm not much impressed. Personally, I don't think there's anything wrong with a sword in a church, but I doubt it would be accepted or displayed, and I'd be concerned it would be auctioned and the money used as a donation, (unless that's what you want) or best-case scenario, simply stored away somewhere out of sight, because of the current "politically correct" climate.
This being said, I'd keep it simple. White hilt and white leather scabbard, with gleaming stainless, sounds fantastic. Perhaps a nice inscription in Latin, on the blade. Simple cruciform style. Fully functional, of course, but more a simple testimony of your faith and some symbolism than a weapon to be wielded. You were just born too late, friend. I'd wager that in any era except the last 300 years, give or take, it'd be accepted by most churches and displayed with pride.
 
David Stifle said:
Ah ha! Got'cha, HC! We've all seen the movie where Harrison Ford is deep in a subterranean tunnel beneath a church, and finds the remains of a crusader, still clad in his armor and clasping his battle sword.:p:D
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It is so heartwarming to me that Hollywood has so well portrayed history.

:cool:

Again, that is something of a memento mori and not a sword used by the church.
 
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Welcome to the board, BWga. I hope you get to fulfill your dreams.

When folks talk about making their first sword here, I always like to link to this three part article: http://www.thearma.org/spotlight/GTA/motions_and_impacts.htm I'd consider this mandatory reading, because the way a sword handles & performs is much more complex than smaller knives.

Next, I don't know how historically accurate you'd want to be with this project, but you may want to research what kinds of swords were used during the Crusades. What you're describing would not fit into that time period. That's OK too, if it doesn't matter to you. But personally I've found that the more I research historical designs, the more I appreciate them, and I end up changing my mind on the design instead.

Swords need impact toughness as one of their primary requirements. The people who make the steel have already done a lot of wonderful work and testing to help us figure out what would work best for our applications, so it never hurts to study industry research. Charts like the ones on this page are quite enlightening: http://www.hudsontoolsteel.com/site/CompareToolSteel
 
Well..let's see. During the British Coronations, 5 swords are in Westminster Abbey, and the Vienna Sword of St. Maurice, which was once housed in a Chapel, are two noteworthy examples. There's really no "use" at all for a sword in a Church, other than ceremonial or decorative, although we could make the argument that during the Viking raids of England, swords were certainly present-and used- in churches and other religious places, because that's where the money was, and I'm sure more than one Christian place of worship was defended with swords during the Crusades.
 
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