First you have to know what sharp is.

Fred.Rowe

Fred.Rowe

Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
Joined
May 2, 2004
Messages
6,848
Please take no offense; But I know for a fact; sharp too one person is not sharp to another, when checking the same edge on a knife.

I think it is a valid point and I will preface my contention with this true story.

Attempting to make a serviceable knife for maybe a year, I found myself in the smithy, with a novice collector of knives.
We were talking about sharp and what a sharp knife is.

The collector was busy putting an edge on the small one inch blade of a carbon steel folder. It was a good quality knife from the 50's.

As he was swirling away on an Arkansas stone; I was asking myself if I would know a sharp knife if I had one in my hands.
I realized at this point that I could not say for sure that I knew what a sharp knife was. I didn't know enough.
The collector stroked and stropped as I questioned and pondered.
How does a knifemaker grind a blade so that it has at least the possibility of becoming sharp.
It seemed apparent that a sharp knife starts at the edge and works backwards from that point.
In a using knife, the edge is everything. If its not sharp or cannot be sharpened then its just a chunk of steel with a handle on it.
Out of the corner of my eye, I could see the sharpening, being done by the collector, was coming to its conclusion and I was about to be shown a well sharpened knife. I prepared myself; don't run your thumb down the edge, stupid!
The knife was extended to me and I took it in hand, making sure to watch where the edge was at all times.
I had learned as a hunter to check an edge by placing it on my thumb nail too see if it caught on the nail. If it did it was pretty sharp.
It didn't. I thumbed it. Dull! The spine was as sharp as the edge.
Not wanting to embarrass my guest; I nodded my head and handed the knife back.
We moved on to other subjects.

After we parted I sat in the shop for a long time going over what had taken place.
Two things came to mind. One was, not everyone sees sharp the same.
The second was I was going at knife making from the wrong direction.
I was always thinking about looks and handles and cool knife shapes; when I should have been thinking about how a smith builds a sharp knife.
You build from the edge out.
That day changed how I look at making knives.

These days when I am putting a knife together in my head; my first thoughts are about the edge and how I should go about building the knife around the edge.
Form follows function in any tool. We are knife makers. We are tool makers and form should follow function in what we make.

I realized that day that I new no more about what a sharp knife was than the collector did. I was thankful for that.
That day changed how I looked at knives and how you go about making a sharp knife.
From that day onward my questions too accomplished knife makers were not how do you make that handle pretty; but how do you go about making your knives so sharp.

Fred

Collectors! My comments are not in anyway meant to imply that collectors don't know a sharp knife when they see one. Just this collector.
The collector in the story was a relative and is not with us anymore.
 
Fred.Rowe said:
Please take no offense; But I know for a fact; sharp too one person is not sharp to another, when checking the same edge on a knife.

I think it is a valid point and I will preface my contention with this true story.

Attempting to make a serviceable knife for maybe a year, I found myself in the smithy, with a novice collector of knives.
We were talking about sharp and what a sharp knife is.

The collector was busy putting an edge on the small one inch blade of a carbon steel folder. It was a good quality knife from the 50's.

As he was swirling away on an Arkansas stone; I was asking myself if I would know a sharp knife if I had one in my hands.
I realized at this point that I could not say for sure that I knew what a sharp knife was. I didn't know enough.
The collector stroked and stropped as I questioned and pondered.
How does a knifemaker grind a blade so that it has at least the possibility of becoming sharp.
It seemed apparent that a sharp knife starts at the edge and works backwards from that point.
In a using knife, the edge is everything. If its not sharp or cannot be sharpened then its just a chunk of steel with a handle on it.
Out of the corner of my eye, I could see the sharpening, being done by the collector, was coming to its conclusion and I was about to be shown a well sharpened knife. I prepared myself; don't run your thumb down the edge, stupid!
The knife was extended to me and I took it in hand, making sure to watch where the edge was at all times.
I had learned as a hunter to check an edge by placing it on my thumb nail too see if it caught on the nail. If it did it was pretty sharp.
It didn't. I thumbed it. Dull! The spine was as sharp as the edge.
Not wanting to embarrass my guest; I nodded my head and handed the knife back.
We moved on to other subjects.

After we parted I sat in the shop for a long time going over what had taken place.
Two things came to mind. One was, not everyone sees sharp the same.
The second was I was going at knife making from the wrong direction.
I was always thinking about looks and handles and cool knife shapes; when I should have been thinking about how a smith builds a sharp knife.
You build from the edge out.
That day changed how I look at making knives.

These days when I am putting a knife together in my head; my first thoughts are about the edge and how I should go about building the knife around the edge.
Form follows function in any tool. We are knife makers. We are tool makers and form should follow function in what we make.

I realized that day that I new no more about what a sharp knife was than the collector did. I was thankful for that.
That day changed how I looked at knives and how you go about making a sharp knife.
From that day onward my questions too accomplished knife makers were not how do you make that handle pretty; but how do you go about making your knives so sharp.

Fred

Collectors! My comments are not in anyway meant to imply that collectors don't know a sharp knife when they see one. Just this collector.
The collector in the story was a relative and is not with us anymore.
Click to expand...

If i could attatch this to my sigline without distracting people from my posts,i would!! :)
 
Good post. I agree with you. Ive had people hand me "sharp" knives that had 150-grit belt finished bevels, and others ask me to sharpen knives that would shave hair because they were too dull.

IMHO, a knife that won't shave hair isnt sharp. From my huge chopping knives to my tiny folders, thats the bare minimum standard of sharpness. If it shaves, I call it sharp.

Beyond shaving, there are many crazy levels of sharpness. In my own personal experience, those super high level of sharpness are more a fun challenge than anything I go after on a daily basis. I find there is diminishing return on the time it takes to reach those upper levels of sharpness. While its nice to have a few knives you can pull out to castrate a flea, I stop at shaving sharp for all my user knives.

I must admit, I never knew how sharp sharp could be until I got an EdgePro. Shaving sharp used to be what I strived for, where now its just a minimum standard of sharpness that I begin with...

FWIW also, Ive only ever met a few people who could properly hand sharpen on a stone. The rest spent a whole lot of time swiping away and removing metal, but hardly ever ended up with a knife that blew me away in terms of sharpness. I am sure there are plenty who could do it, but i think too many people see a stone and make the error in thinking "its just a sharpening stone...how hard could it be?"
 
I thought I had owned and handled lots of 'sharp' knives until about a year ago when I took a short private bladesmithing lesson from Tai Goo. The first thing we did was he gave me a demo/instruction on how he hand sharpens knives. He started with a dull, simple knife and (as I recall) worked it on about 5 different stones and finally a leather strop (he stropped towards the edge too, which I had always thought stropping was done away from the edge.) I tested the edge on my arm hair, and it removed every single hair in it's path right to the skin in a single, gentle swipe as if nothing had even happened. That is the sharpest knife I have ever handled before or since, and I now have a new benchmark for what 'sharp' actually is.
 
Very good observations Fred.
I keep examples of knives around to remind me of different things. One knife I have I had bought for a hunting knife. It is what I liked in it's proportions. I sharpened it to shaving sharp, but it would dull up quickly when skinning a deer or steer. It's problem wasn't clear to me at first. I now know it is too thick just behind the edge. I keep it as an example of that, to remind me to grind thin.
I would like to find a test that I consider relavent to test for sharpness. The "chopping" contests are not a gauge that transfers to real knife usage, but are dramatic and do sell knives.
What tests do you use other than shaving and use?
Thank You.
Alden
 
Don't forget there are also different kinds of "sharp"

Working sharp

slicing sharp

wood-carving sharp



Sharp is not only relative to the user...it is also relative to the task.



I keep my shop knife "working sharp" because it is easier to maintain and less steel is being removed as I am resharpening weekly, sometimes daily.



That is different than the edge I keep on my kitchen knives (slicing sharp = polished toothy) - which I don't want to resharpen often...only ocassionally....plus I there are "little hands" running around my house.


And that is also different than the pocket knives I get out only now-n-then for ocassional carving tasks - I keep those polished to a higher grit.



I enjoy looking at customers' sharpened blades....tells me a lot about their expectations and uses. I know an electrician that uses quality knives at his job. He doesn't use them for tasks that a utility knife would do better...but they do get used. He doesn't keep them very sharp....but relies on edge geometry and pressure to get a lot more cutting out of the knife between resharpening. Very practical view...probably more common than I'd be willing to admit. If I made a polished-edge knife for him, he'd destroy the edge and be disappointed with it (and me). He needs a toothy-edge, a long-lasting edge. I also advised him to get a hollow grind - to sail through cutting jobs.


I think when you have a knife whose design and edge treatment matches the intended task, you have a real winner. Many knives can be "pressed into duty" for unintended tasks...but they don't "excel" at it...they just "get the job done". Still good knives...but not "excellent".


But that's not to say that looks don't matter....they DO!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Form Follows Function" is a saying that thrown around a lot in the custom knife world...but I'm not sure that those who use it understand it completely.

Here's a short write-up.

The saying is attributed to the sculptor Horatio Greenough, but the architect Louis Sullivan made it famous in this poem:


It is the pervading law of all things organic and inorganic,
Of all things physical and metaphysical,
Of all things human and all things super-human,
Of all true manifestations of the head,
Of the heart, of the soul,
That the life is recognizable in its expression,
That form ever follows function. This is the law.


And then Frank Lloyd Wright (and, of course, the hundreds/thousands of modern architects after Wright) made it a Benchmark, an Ensign.


Form Follows Function


But, interestingly, it became more of a catch-phrase than a true philosophy.

For Architecture, it means that the outside of a building/home should reflect what is going on inside, and that it should adapt to that space's intended purpose. It was also a battle-cry against Ornamentation in Architecture...to get rid of "decorated" buildings with superfluous "non-functional" elements.



A BAD example of Form Following Function would be a building that is a Large Box and gives you no "hint" as to what is going on inside. But, I think, if the average Joe were to look at Louis Sullivan's skyscrapers, that is EXACTLY how they would describe it. *shrug*

Further, Sullivan uses plenty of ornamentation in his work....*double shrug*

You can say the same things about Wright and his work....*triple shrug*




And I find myself doing the same thing....having the same reaction whenever I hear knifemakers, collectors, users, lecturers, etc. use the catchy phrase.

*shrug*


It's a great phrase/motto/slogan/etc. Has alliteration, has nice rhythm, it's easy to understand on a basic level, and very easy to "toss around".

But I see very few examples of it applied correctly in knifemaking.


And, frankly, I'm glad.


A true "Form Follows Function" knife would be as eye-pleasing as a screwdriver or fingernail clippers. As "enjoyable" visually as a clothespin or paperclip.



So, Thank Goodness that despite standing behind the phrase, tossing it around casually, etc.......those knifemakers using it (and even those who don't) do not make knives adhering solely to that Ideology.



I think a more fitting catch-phrase for knifemaking/knifemakers would be "Integrity in Materials"....aka "Honesty in Materials" - another great modernist ideal.

In other words, the idea that you should use a material for its intended purpose...and not expect it to perform duties best accomplished by a different material.



Or, perhaps the "Master Craftsman" set forth by William Morris of the Arts & Crafts Movement....the idea that a work is best achieved by a well-rounded craftsman, able to multi-task and be good at several things, rather than one specialty. Also, that a craftsman does his best when he is happy, and is happiest when working.


There are more....many more out there.


I know I am probably the only tree that has fallen in this forest...and while I am not necessarily ranting, but promoting...perhaps I have at least enlightened a few out there (that will no doubt continue using this phrase) as to the origin/history of it, and maybe foster a deeper appreciation of it.

Dan
 
I have no idea what 'sharp' means anymore. I think the word is largely meaningless unless it is qualified to a specific task.

True story - I have two identical kitchen knives in regular use, both chicago cutlery slicers, nothing fancy but perfectly good for kitchen use. I put a hair-shaving edge on one using an edgepro, the other I sharpened by hand on my coarsest diamond stone, basically leaving it micro-serrated.

In regular use, I can't tell them apart. They both cut wonderfully, at least when applied to ordinary kitchen tasks.

Sure, the first will shave toothpicks and the second will not, but so what? They both zip through meat, vegetables, and bread. I have not had to resharpen either of them, at least not yet. They inhabit opposite ends of the spectrum of what I used to consider 'sharp', but somehow, they both perform the same.

Sharpness is defined by how you test it. If you test an edge by shaving hair, or by grabbing thumbnails, or cutting rope, or skinning game, then that's the kind of sharpness you'll get. My guess is that you'll find that the your best knife for slicing nylon rope is not going to be your best knife for slicing newspaper, even if the profiles are all the same.
 
good story fred. it always amazes me how many people dont really know what a sharp knife is. i have ran into quite a few people over the years that thought they had a sharp knife until they see one i sharpened. i have been experimenting with how i sharpen the knives i make and it seems the next one is sharper than the last. i had a knife that actually scared me each time i took it out of its sheath. it put 10 stitches in my left hand (no, i didnt get pictures). i have made knives since then that are sharper but they no longer scare me.
 
Everyone does have their own definition of sharp. It's fun when my friends comment on how sharp my "dull" knives are.

Cutting-ability has a lot to do with edge geometry. I find that before heat treat, (no edge), my chef knives will slice things like onions better than any of my (very sharp) choppers. This is simply because the thin edge of the chef displaces very little material.

---------

In my opinion, form and function go hand in hand. A truly well designed tool can also be a piece of art. Look at antique hand-planes and other tools; they're beautiful, and designed for a lifetime of use.

When I design a knife, I start with a purpose. My goal is to make a knife that will perform perfectly (I know it's an impossible goal) and look unique and beautiful. The aesthetic component does not detract from the function, it enhances it. The shape of the blade and handle, the placement of pins; these affect the function and appearance of the blade. I find that often the most functional shapes are also the best looking and vice-versa.

Phillip
 
Danial,


I believe, what you say above the line

=======conflicts with=======

what you say below the line

"I think when you have a knife whose design and edge treatment matches the intended task, you have a real winner. Many knives can be "pressed into duty" for unintended tasks...but they don't "excel" at it...they just "get the job done". Still good knives...but not "excellent".


Are you not stating the wisdom of form follows function ?

Many phrases are considered catch phrases, that makes them no less relevant. I agree with you, many a phrase gets kicked around in the knife community. Remember edge packing?
History is rife with examples of form following function, most glaring in edged weapons, the katana and the rapier, to mention just a couple.
Both of these weapons are known for their function as well as their beauty.





People who are entering knife making, I believe would be advised, to steer their efforts toward making a well made functional blade, rather than put their energy into making something different, just for the sake of its difference.



Knives can and should be both functional and aesthetic.
Frank Loyd Wright would agree.

Fred
 
Sharp is sharp enough to cut what you want to cut, the way you want to cut it.
 
I watched my BIL slit a deer up the belly and it was kinda dark but I was watching all this hair flying away from the knife and I was a bit dumbfounded. I didn't say anything, just because I'd never really been hunting and I didn't want to look like an idiot. So anyway, later my brother made mention about the BIL's knife being so F****** sharp that it cuts the hair and they end up picking hair out of the meat.

I'd never seen a knife do that before and obviously I would call that sharp.

Sharp to me is if it will push cut newspaper without getting caught.
 
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I wasn't going to put up anything here at all, but then I thought, after rereading Fred's first post and Tai's point of reference to sharp that these two things defined knives as close to true as can be done. Form does follow function and function is cutting. Everything beyond that is a celebration of it.

Mike
 
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