Fixed blade for a Cub Scout?

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by kirch:
<snip>Back to the original topic, I'm thinking the CS Master Hunter might be a little bit meaty for an 8-year-old, no? And doesn't that come in Carbon V? I'm not sure he's ready for a steel that needs that kind of upkeep.

Set me straight if I'm wrong.

</font>
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kirch,
My reasoning is a bit different on the topic of rusty vs stainless steels. I believe that carbon steel is the better choice for several moral reasons. With carbon steel, a direct and immediate object lesson can be taught, ie: take care of the blade (your possesions) and they will take care of you. Neglect them, and they will let you down. Don't be ashamed of honest work (sure, the blade gets stained from honest chores, but it's only skin deep). Too many people these days are repulsed by callosed(sp) hands, if you catch my meaning. Stainlees is for experts, IMNSHO, and not for beginners. The world had far too many disposeables as it is. Buy him a decent carbon steel, then let him learn to take care of it. Since high carbon steels can rust quickly, the results of even a tiny bit of oversight in upkeep are immediate.<--a good thing, since a little restoration is easy if it's caught in time.
just my .002 worth.
I'll get off my soap box now.
 
Hi,

Get your son a Victorinox Rucksack the one with the larger grip and locking blade, saw, can opener, bottle opener, awl, corkscrew and saw.
This will be a knife that will do everything he wants to do.

As a Dutch Scoutmaster I can tell you that in our Scouting club (and Scouting Holland) we have the same kind of rules, we don't want kids toting larger fixed blades, they can carry a SAK with the same length blade without a problem.

We are not scared of them doing stupid things with a knife as they get training on the use of knives axes saws etc. and it's a very good training.
We are scared that when they fall down or fall from a tree that the fixed blade knife will penetrate the often flimsy leather/cordura sheath that came with the fixed blade and they will get impaled by a couple of inches of knife.

It has happened in the past hence the rule of not wanting the scouts carrying fixed blade knives.

Best Scouting wishes from Holland,

Bagheera

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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by OwenM:
The Camillus Talon in 154CM is worth a look at $99.
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=1483342&a=11175536&p=46342247&Sequence=0
My scans are getting a little better. I can even tell it's a knife!</font>
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My 9 yr old son has been casting greedy eyes on mine since it came in last monday.
biggrin.gif
We did shavings & chips together in Janurary, and now he's more than eager to help with 'Dads' knives. I'll probably be taking over as his den leader next Sept. as he goes into Webelos so this is all good to know.

I like the Speider as well as the AG Russell Woodswalker, but I think I'll see how well he keeps up with the SAK.
 
Bagheera -- that's probably the first lucid argument I've seen for this rule, and it's well taken. Whatever I decide on, I'll make sure it comes with either a sturdy leather or kydex sheath.

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"I can't believe you stabbed me with this cheap piece of mail-order sh*t"
James Caan in 'Eraser'
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Regarding the regulations -- You provided me exactly what I was looking for when I posted on the
kf.com thread - a reference in the event someone makes a stink on the upcoming camping trip. Do
you know where I can find that "Guide to Safe Scouting"?</font>
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The Guide to Safe Scouting is a must-read for any scout leader. For one thing, it sets out the BSA policies which, if you don't follow, may open you up to a lawsuit. It should be available at your local scout office, or at your basic training program.

It is also available online at http://www.scouting.org/nav/volunteers.html
follow the link for publications, and the second from the bottom, I believe is the Guide. It is available in both a printable version, and a online readable version.

Since we're talking scouts, let me put a plug in for my knotting page: http://www.folsoms.net/knots
It may be useful.

Peace, Al
 
Since I posted the above, I realized that others may want to access the Guide to Safe Scouting, so I grabbed the single page version, converted it to PDF, and posted it on my troop website. (Isn't technology wonderful?) If you want a printable PDF version, you can go to http://www.folsoms.net/troop172 and look for the online forms link in the upper right. Lots of forms available, including the guide. Be aware it is 1.4 Megabytes, so may take 3-4 minutes to download.
Peace, Al

[This message has been edited by folsom (edited 04-12-2001).]
 
From the BSA website Al mentioned above.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">A sharp pocketknife with a can opener on it is an invaluable backcountry tool. Keep it clean, sharp, and handy. Avoid large sheath knives. They are heavy and awkward to carry, and unnecessary for most camp chores except for cleaning fish. Since its inception, Boy Scouting has relied heavily on an outdoor program to achieve its objectives. This program meets more of the purposes of Scouting than any other single feature. We believe we have a duty to instill in our members, youth and adult, the knowledge of how to use, handle, and store legally owned knives with the highest concern for safety and responsibility.</font>
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This is the only relevant reference I could find. Sounds like "cleaning fish" is the only suitable use for a fixed blade in the woods.
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Ron
 
I really liked the Helle Speider, that seems like a very good choice for you. The price is such that, if it is lost, you won't be out too much, but he will learnm a good lesson.

On a higher price level, roughly double, take a look at the Spyderco Moran Drop Point. I think that this is a wonderful little knife and I also think that it would serve very well in the hands of a boy, perhaps a bit older that eight.

On Scouts with knives, I know that I have told this before, but it is a good story, so I'll tell it again. When I was an Assistant Scoutmaster of a troop at a Methodist Church, we had a hard and fast rule about no sheath knives. You see, we were in a very urban area, and almost none of the boys had ever even handled a knife before joining Scouts. I made it my business to set about familiarizing them with sharp, pointy things, and putting them through Tote-N-Chip, at least enough so that we had a core to teach other boys. Soon we had the reputation as the best armed troop in the National Capitol Area Council. In any case, at the end of one summer, the son of the church pastor, a member of the troop, came up and said that he would like to show us the knife that his daddy had brought him back from his summer mission in Mexico. With that the kid pulls out and opens a 6-7 inch switchblade. The Scoutmaster's undershorts are turning rapidly brown and I am collapsing in fits of laughter while the poor kid just doesn't get it. My son and a couple of the other senior scouts came up and asked to see it and closed it gently while I calmed down. We then explained to the boy that the knife was highly illegal at both the state and federal levels and that we would not recommend him carrying it around with him. Poor kid, he turned white and ran home with it to give it back to his Dad who came over later to ask about it. We explained about the law and he apologized and thanked us for warning them. We never saw the knife again, but it was a pretty thing. All that I could think of was the old saying about "Minister's sons and Deacon's daughters".

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Walk in the Light,
Hugh Fuller
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">This is the only relevant reference I could find. Sounds like "cleaning fish" is the only suitable use for a fixed blade in the woods.</font>
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That is the exact, and only reference. Be aware that as scout leaders, we're dealing with a lot of different kids, and their parents, and sometimes have to work towards the lowest common denominator. That's why, I think, the referenced section is worded as loosely as it is.

Even my own troop rules strongly discourage sheath knives. I find it much easier, and safer, to grant a privilege to someone who as earned it, than to take away one when someone has proved they can't handle it. Especially when that proof may come in the form of harm to someone else's kid.

I bought the Helle Speider's for my twins as birthday presents, and they have been very good with them. I'm not sure how their cohorts would respond.

Personally, I think the best knife for a scout, especially a smaller one, is a Buck 112. Sturdy, not too expensive, locks open, and can handle almost anything. One of them likes the 112, one likes the Kershaw Black Gulch I showed them. That's their reward for completing the Tenderfoot stuff in the next month or so.

Peace, Al
 
Hi Al,

Don't scouts need to prove their abilities with knife knowledge and handling before given the privilege to carry and use a knife of any kind (including a folder)?...Like earning a patch before carrying one? I was assuming this was the case and the leadership was still discounting fixed blades. I did not think they were telling the kids to carry knives and learn later. Earn the right...then give them the right. Maybe I just don't understand the system.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Even my own troop rules strongly discourage sheath knives. I find it much easier, and safer, to grant a privilege to someone who as earned it, than to take away one when someone has proved they can't handle it. Especially when that proof may come in the form of harm to someone else's kid.</font>
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In opposition to the BSA statement, I do believe a small, prudent fixed blade to be safer than most folding knives. "Unnecessary for most camp chores...?" Where are they camping? Their back yards? The knife picture on the above mentioned BSA site has a very nice, but small, multi bladed, NON-locking folder. Try cutting limbs for tent pegs safely with that in a pinch.

BTW, who uses "large sheath knives" that are "heavy and awkward to carry" for cleaning fish? I'm visualizing here a 6-10" fighting or survival type knife (anyone else seeing the same thing?). Those must be really large fish. I'm not all that lucky...I catch 10" trout and need a small knife to clean them. Maybe I'm a bad fisherman.

Ron

[This message has been edited by Ron@SOG (edited 04-12-2001).]
 
Yes, scouts must first earn what is called a "Totin Chip" card before being allowed to carry a knife of any kind, or being allowed to use an ax or hatchet. Having said that, there are still scouts we watch quite closely, despite having officially earned the card. I suspect you know the type. Despite earning the card, it is not a binary yes/no kind of decision for using a knife or other tool. I have several senior scouts I'll send out to chop firewood, even though I won't let the new Tenderfoot who has just passed his Totin Chip do it without close adult supervision. That just makes sense.

I agree that a small fixed blade is safer than a lot of folders, the problem comes in defining small, and judging who is ready. I've got to make that decision responsibly, and be flexible on it. (Remember, I'm on your side here, I bought my cubs fixed blades, and DO allow them on trips outside of our Council camp, with approval).

By the way, your example of using a knife to cut tent stakes would almost certainly cause a scout to lose his Totin Chip. The lightweight tents we use come with small plastic or metal stakes which are stronger than wood, and we carry spares. Cutting stakes is much more harmful to the site than we would allow. Of course, I'm talking about normal camping, not the wilderness survival type stuff that I wouldn't be taking the younger scouts on anyway.

Remember the quote above says "Large Sheath knives should be avoided". It intentionally (I think) leaves the interpretation to the unit involved. A summer camp, where no scout should be cutting anything other than small rope, may well restrict them completely. A troop of more experienced scouts out away from the KOA's of the world can take a much more loose attitude. If you ask for more definition than what is given, you may get an answer you don't like.

Oh, and I think the reference to fishing is for fillet knives -- folding fillet knives quickly get disgusting with guts, especially for scouts who don't always clean them properly.

Peace, Al
 
Kirch, don't overlook Livesay's knives.
http://members.tripod.com/~Newt_Livesay/index2.html

The Woo and the NRGS go for $27 and $45 respectively and would be fine. For an extra five the NRGS comes with linen micarta handle slabs(a very good material that doesn't demand any upkeep).
But your best bet with him would be his Bow Hunt'n Buddy knife. Goes for $45 with black micarta handle slabs and a kydex neck sheath. A kydex left/right crossdraw belt sheath is available for an extra ten.

Have fun choosing and try not to cry when he loses it
wink.gif
.

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You could put nacho cheese sauce on it...
 
Hi Al,

I appreciate your responses. You are in what I feel is the most important position in the scouts...the one who cares for and trains our kids. And I do understand we are all on the same side. That is well received.

I also understand about both the age appropriateness and the individual responsibility level of each of the kids regarding knives in scouts.

The "fishing" reference stands by itself and is clear in context on the BSA site:

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Avoid large sheath knives. They are heavy and awkward to carry, and unnecessary for most camp chores except for cleaning fish.</font>
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This is all one statement that cannot be separated. It is either very carefully written or very poorly written.

Maybe I'm thinking too much happens with the kids while on campouts. I went hunting deer with my dad from as young as I can remember and started hunting myself at about 13. That means personally using knives and guns with a certain level of competence. Not to say scouts are responsible to teach hunting skills, but those "field skills" I used back then required a fixed blade and I would think those "field skills" would be similar to where a scouts' training would be headed. Just my thoughts.

Regarding appropriate fixed bladed knives? I have Fallkniven's catalog here on my desk.
smile.gif


Thanks again for listening.
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">This is all one statement that cannot be separated. It is either very carefully written or very poorly written. </font>
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I would suspect the latter
wink.gif


A point to remember when we are quoting here, is that in the orginal document official BSA policy is shown in bold, normal text is advisary or explanatory. None of the knife stuff (if I remember correctly) is bold. Rather than concentrate on possible negatives, I like to remember the part:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> We believe we have a duty to instill in our members, youth and adult, the knowledge of how to use, handle, and store
legally owned knives with the highest concern for safety and responsibility. </font>
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That 's my goal.

Given that, do you think you could convince SOG to make a small fixed blade? I think the smallest blade you make is 4.625". I'd love to see something along the line of a Nimravus Cub, that the scouts could actually afford!

Boy, I have contributed to wandering off topic on this thread!

Peace, Al




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Al Folsom alan@folsoms.net
Before you criticize a man, walk a mile in his shoes.
Then if he gets mad, he'll be a mile away, and barefoot!
* * * *
Buck Collector's Club #1334 (oh man, this is gonna cost me...)
Micah 6:8
 
Hi Al,

Smaller fixed blade? Our smallest is the SEAL Pup at 4.75" with the NW Ranger and X-42 Recondo second both at 5". We're always working on projects and have thoughts of smaller knives. We'll see.

We have a new knife coming out this year called the Duo. Not really a folder...not really a fixed blade. 2.75" blade. Definitely an affordable outdoor knife. http://www.sogknives.com/new_products2001.htm Advertisement over.
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Instilling the highest level of responsibility in your scouts as your goal is absolutely outstanding. Keep up the good work.

Ron
 
There's a positive buried in here, as well: while the scouts are discouraging fixed blades, they're encouraging (or at the very leat not discouraging) folders. In this age of ridiculous zero tolerance policies at most schools, I think it's great that scouts still carry knives.

I wanted a jackknife practically before I could walk, and the object of my desire was the prototypical scout-type slipjoint folder. The BSA is providing an incubator for crops of potential Knife People -- and that's a good thing.

-Razor

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AKTI #A000845
And tomorrow when you wake up it will be worse.
 
The other thing to consider with Scout guidelines is that a normal part of the scout equipment is the hatchet or small handaxe. Most of the typical camp chores can be easily accomplished with the pocketknife/handaxe combination. In that respect they can discourage fixed blades but still feel reasonably sure that camp chores will be taken care of. They probably mention fishing because it's a pain to keep a folder clean when cleaning fish, especially for scouts.

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Die Entropie der Welt strebt einem Maximum zu - R.J.E. Clausius
 
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