Fixed blades in stainless

R

Rooster81

Joined
Jan 19, 2011
Messages
349
I usually see fixed blades, especially bushcraft style or similar outdoor use, in steels like A2, 01,1095, etc.

My understanding is that there are several stainless steels (14C28N, AEB-L, 420HC, LC200N) that are equal or superior in terms of toughness and edge retention, in addition to being stainless.

So my question is why aren't more outdoor use fixed blades offered in stainless?

Thanks.
 
Sibyrnes said:
There are many outdoor use fixed blades out there in stainless. Here are just a few of them that I have:

White River Ursus 45
White River Backpacker
Condor Primitive Bushknife
Mora Garberg
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The Mora Garberg is a good example. The stainless steel version (14C28N) is far superior to 1095, or any low alloy/high carbon steel. Plus the stainless is cheaper. So why would you buy the carbon version? I feel like I'm missing something?

Or maybe JoeBusic is right.
 
Same with axes or hatchets. A stainless steel axe would be nice. But most of the high end axes I see are high carbon steel. Seems like a 420HC axe would be nice.
 
Rooster81 said:
The Mora Garberg is a good example. The stainless steel version (14C28N) is far superior to 1095, or any low alloy/high carbon steel. Plus the stainless is cheaper. So why would you buy the carbon version? I feel like I'm missing something?

Or maybe JoeBusic is right.
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My own experience is that 14C28N is not better (let alone "far superior") to 1095, though I don't dislike stainless steel at all. I own and use stainless steel knives and tools all the time to good effect. I find them plenty tough. I do prefer the non-stainless HC steels, however, because I sharpen them better and I prefer how their edges wear over those of SS. As for bushcrafty stuff, many users find that SS knives do not throw a spark from a ferro rod as well as their HC counterparts. I have had mixed experiences with SS in this regard. I don't rely on a ferro rod on outdoor adventures, so this is is not a priority for me, but I see this in YouTube reviews all the time. Your question, though, is why are there not more outdoor use fixed blade made in stainless. I must say that I do not shop much for outdoor fixed blades any longer because I have settled on my collection. I do look at Buck knives a lot, though, and they are almost all made in 420HC stainless. In my locale, Murdoch's sells more stainless Moras than carbon. My hunting and fishing pals carry stainless fixed blades rather than carbon.

So you are missing something: My own personal experience. Those of us on the carbon side of the fence can explain it to you, but we cannot understand it for you. =) I think your reasons for going for stainless make a lot of sense, so you should go with it!

Zieg
 
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14c28n is a great steel and is better than all the 1095/1095cv I use. It sharpens up to 2000 grit very similar to simple carbon steels, very tough and pretty rust resistant. This is the Ruike Jager btw which is a cracking knife for the price.
 
Rooster81 said:
Same with axes or hatchets. A stainless steel axe would be nice. But most of the high end axes I see are high carbon steel. Seems like a 420HC axe would be nice.
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I think axes and hatchets are actually quite different. There's no real benefit to using stainless in an axe and a lot of downside. An axe doesn't have any real nooks or crannies where you'd get rust. It'll patina and then you can just clean it and dry it off. But stainless would be much more prone to damage in an axe or hatchet.

For fixed blades that are not very large, i.e. inching into machete or short sword territory, there are valid reasons to pick a tough stainless instead of a carbon steel, and there are a lot of stainless choices for knives like that.
 
The Zieg said:
My own experience is that 14C28N is not better (let alone "far superior") to 1095,
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I made the statement based on Dr. Larrins tests which indicate the following when comparing 14C28N to 1095:

- 14C28N holds an edge approximately 30% longer (or cuts 30% more) in CATRA testing

- 14C28N is approximately three times at tough (300% tougher) in Charpy tests (30 ft/lb vs 10 ft/lb

- 14C28N is very very rust resistant. 1095 has essentially zero rust resistance.

I'm wondering if a lot of the stainless steels have inferior heat treatments or other quality control issues that would lead to a decrease in optimal performance.

I guess I'll need to buy the Garberg in both steels and test myself!
 
I've run AEB-L as hard as 61 on machetes ground thin (like .020" behind the edge) which then chopped hard wood without deformation. I have a lot of faith in AEB-L, at least when heat treated by Jarod Todd.

1095 may be a good alloy if you get a good batch and heat treatment, but I have read some makers, even very well known ones, who say that they will not use it because the composition varies enough from batch to batch that one cannot be certain of a precise outcome from same heat treatment protocol each time.
 
Rooster81 said:
I made the statement based on Dr. Larrins tests which indicate the following when comparing 14C28N to 1095:

- 14C28N holds an edge approximately 30% longer (or cuts 30% more) in CATRA testing

- 14C28N is approximately three times at tough (300% tougher) in Charpy tests (30 ft/lb vs 10 ft/lb

- 14C28N is very very rust resistant. 1095 has essentially zero rust resistance.

I'm wondering if a lot of the stainless steels have inferior heat treatments or other quality control issues that would lead to a decrease in optimal performance.

I guess I'll need to buy the Garberg in both steels and test myself!
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I suppose he prefers the way 1095 sharpens and cuts. For me, I would take 14c28n over 1095 for literally any size knife every day of the week.
 
Rooster81 said:
That's kind of the root of my question. Why/how would a stainless steel be more prone to damage if the toughness and hardness are the same as a carbon steel?
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It shouldn't be.
 
Rooster81 said:
That's kind of the root of my question. Why/how would a stainless steel be more prone to damage if the toughness and hardness are the same as a carbon steel?
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David Mary said:
It shouldn't be.
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Isn't the issue though that the toughness of stainless steel is broadly not in the same category as that of carbon steel? AEB-L is among the toughest of stainless steels, but it's kind of toward the bottom of the pile (though still in the running) if you compare it against carbon steels. Whenever we talk about tough stainless steels, it's always the caveat that it's tough for a stainless, right? Plus with an axe, the importance of resistance to deformation under impact shock becomes a more important part of the loose definition of 'toughness,' then, say, resistance to lateral stress deformation.
 
madcap_magician said:
Isn't the issue though that the toughness of stainless steel is broadly not in the same category as that of carbon steel? AEB-L is among the toughest of stainless steels, but it's kind of toward the bottom of the pile (though still in the running) if you compare it against carbon steels. Whenever we talk about tough stainless steels, it's always the caveat that it's tough for a stainless, right? Plus with an axe, the importance of resistance to deformation under impact shock becomes a more important part of the loose definition of 'toughness,' then, say, resistance to lateral stress deformation.
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That is the religious part. Old beliefs based on 440C long time ago and sticked. Axes are low carbon for manufacturability. It would be wise to get them in S series but it costs more and no one cares. Stainless is harder to mold. But for custom makers there is no reason not to use SS.
 
madcap_magician said:
Isn't the issue though that the toughness of stainless steel is broadly not in the same category as that of carbon steel? AE)B-L is among the toughest of stainless steels, but it's kind of toward the bottom of the pile (though still in the running) if you compare it against carbon steels. Whenever we talk about tough stainless steels, it's always the caveat that it's tough for a stainless, right? Plus with an axe, the importance of resistance to deformation under impact shock becomes a more important part of the loose definition of 'toughness,' then, say, resistance to lateral stress deformation.
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I'm looking at Dr. Larrins charts (https://knifesteelnerds.com/2021/10...ness-edge-retention-and-corrosion-resistance/).

AEB-L is higher than all excpet for two or three high carbon steels (which it's roughly equal to) in terms of the charpy impact/toughness test.
 
Have you compared the toughest carbon steels to the toughest stainless?? (Spoiler alert - you haven’t).

1095 is mediocre in regards to toughness.

Here’s the charts from Larrin showing the trends.

Note that 420HC/AEB-L (the top stainless steels in the chart) are at about 41ft-lbs, while 5160 is up at 45ft-lbs, and 8670 is up at 50.

296A1680-E712-4004-9AC1-80C6AB3685FB.jpegAD4A21CD-9410-4FF8-B2DA-29165111C044.jpegC69F2AFE-32E2-48C1-B061-BB8477E17B70.jpeg

Oh and 5160 is cheap, easy to grind, easy to HT, and easy get/keep sharp. That’s why folks like it and other “simple” steels. Even 3V can’t hang…
 
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Rooster81 said:
AEB-L is higher than all excpet for two or three high carbon steels (which it's roughly equal to) in terms of the charpy impact/toughness test.
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AEN-L is 40ft-lbs, 8670 is 50ft-lbs.

I’d call that a SIGNIFICANT difference, (like about 20%).

(Not that there’s anything wrong with stainless…)
 
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