They questioned him because they could see the clip. Any blade carried in NYC must be carried CONCEALED,even a slipjoint must be carried in the pocket. With the clip showing it was not concealed in the eyes of the law. For this alone he could've been charged, even if his knife were legal according to law. If you read the original post, he was not arrested or charged, but released and his knife was confiscated. Chances are, if he pushes the issue to get his knife back, charges would be forthcoming. Possibly time to count his lucky stars and educate himself on the finer points of NYC knife laws.
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Fixed under 4" for NYC Carry
- Thread starter spytech
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i know, i mentioned that in my post. i wanted to know what reason the cops used to bring him in and what they said to him after he was released.
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This is part of the response:
The details of the case were included in an attachment. The defense even brought in a former member of Camillus manufacturing team who detailed for the court the history of gravity knives etc and how they are fundamentally different from a liner lock. When asked by the prosecution to open the knife in question with a flick of the wrist, he was able to - easily - multiple times. Defendant was found guilty, although he might not have been prosecuted with so much zeal if he hadn't had a wad of counterfeit bills on his person to boot.
I haven't bothered to contact my local DA's office, they'd probably give me a very non committal response. What can they say, there's the letter of the law and it's at their discretion to enforce it. I'm still hoping to hear back from NY county DA's office regarding the old "hold it by the blade" test. Reading the code, that would seem to be "releasing the handle from the blade" rather than releasing the blade from the handle. Consider, the law is written so that a knife with those properties is of such an offensive nature that it's possession implies an intent to use unlawfully. How can holding a knife by the blade while opening, then having to shift one's grip etc before bringing the knife to bear, be any sort of practical scheme for a knife that's primary purpose is as a weapon? I'd like to think a half competent lawyer could get that thrown, and if not the Appellate court would strike it down. Of course that's a lot of money and time to fight a misdemeanor that you could most likely plead down...
Cut myself too many times on slip-joints, I've made the switch to a fixed blade till I get a clear response.
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They will classify anything that is not a swiss army knife a "gravity knife" (maybe even then).
They have taken what is supposed to be classified as a gravity knife and twisted it into what they want it to be.
A gravity knife originally referred to the German Paratrooper knives from World War 2. You pressed a lever in the handle of the knife and GRAVITY drew the blade out of the handle. It has since been meant to mean other things.
A lot of the problem with the classification of "gravity knife" is that it is subjective to the police officer. The penal law also does not specify the amount of centripetal force required to open the blade, it just says "gravity or inertia".
They have taken what is supposed to be classified as a gravity knife and twisted it into what they want it to be.
A gravity knife originally referred to the German Paratrooper knives from World War 2. You pressed a lever in the handle of the knife and GRAVITY drew the blade out of the handle. It has since been meant to mean other things.
A lot of the problem with the classification of "gravity knife" is that it is subjective to the police officer. The penal law also does not specify the amount of centripetal force required to open the blade, it just says "gravity or inertia".
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just make sure your fixed knife doesn't fall out of the sheath if you apply a centrifugal force
You are correct, when i was walking out of the train station on 59th street i reached for my cell phone which is in my back pocket, that action slightly pulled up my shirt and a guy spotted my clip; not a cop, someone they had spotting and he told the cop. first i knocked the cops hand away (did not know he was a cop yet) because he did not properly identify himself and came from the back while i was exiting the station - he just tried to quickly turn me around and put his hands in my pocket to get the knife. could have gone very bad very quickly, luckily his partner started to wave his shield. very overzealous cop that wanted a collar and some OT. i mean if you were there you could see his eyes light up with joy.
after about 2 hours when they gave me a summons (on a slip from 2005). when i asked for my knife or some type of paper work stating they took it, they refused and asked if i wanted to go to jail. they walked me over to the the Sgt. and he gave me a short story and said we spoke with your cousin at precint X. and this is why your getting a break. if you push it any further i will arrest you, so walk out the door.
the knife they took was a Kershaw Ken onion. they refused to give me any type of voucher.
first time i was on a motorcycle, two cop cars and a wagon showed up and cut me off while i was waiting for a green light. showed cop my pba (2 of them) and he threw them at me - i picked them up from the floor and got cuffed on the way up. took me in, waited about an hour gave me my motorcycle back with my knife and no summons or tickets. the knife in this case was a SOG twitch XL.
i no longer carry with clip showing and i acknowledge that it was my fault for having the clip exposed. though the treatment i got was not of what someone would call New Yorks finest. i am very respectful and tried to keep my answer very short and if possible "yes officer" or "no officer", "is there something wrong officer"
My benchmade take a lot of force to open, although the mechanism is smooth and spring assisted. you have to flick hard to get it to open and sometimes it takes several times, i asked my cop friends to try. their answer to me is, does not matter if it takes me 15 tries, if at some point it opens, your mine!!!
PBA have worked in the past, but no longer. i have a clean record, i do not have a ticket on my drivers license, and i think this helps when i am detained.
i just want to thank everyone who has posted and help me out with this. i just want to be on the legal side of things though still carry as i have for many years. i have only had to take out my knife one time in my life. i defended a woman friend at a bar, broke my hand on a guys face. while taking the train to the hospital he showed up with 3 friends and he had a knife. i took a couple quick steps towards the guy with the knife with intent to use mine and he quickly stepped back at which point i ran the other way - not winning a fight where his 2 other buddies could hold me down and he could stab me - also had a broken metacarpal. at this stage in my life i could do 5k in under 18mins maybe less with the adrenaline rush, no way they were catching me...lol
basically i am not hot head and do not go for my knife as a first measure.
if anyone else has any other suggestions like the boker amico or street beat, i think the street beat may be my next knife.
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Pocket clip = trouble. First thing that I did years ago, after my new Cold Steel 4" "Voyager" folder came out of the box, was to grab my Phillips-head screwdriver, remove the pocket clip and chuck it into my kitchen trash bin. We have anti-knife jurisdictions here in MA as well and a pocket clip is a sure invitation to arrest/court. An under-4" fixed blade, though technically legal in NYC, will not solve the OP's problem if he does not practice good concealment. In fact, a fixed blade sheath will be harder to hide than a folder. He will also have to deal with the "dangerous knife" provision. A dickhead with a badge and a sour disposition can still bust him on those grounds. Another lesson that he should learn is not to EDC an expensive knife. That way, if it gets lost, confiscated or he uses it in SD and has to ditch it, he will not be out a lot of money.
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I actually wear mine IWB at three o clock. The "dangerous knife" change would have to be backed up by some other evidence (possession of contraband etc), assuming the knife hasn't been modified to become "more dangerous". Doesn't mean they won't arrest you, just means the judge would likely throw it out or the DA would decline to prosecute.
Jim your quote "after about 2 hours when they gave me a summons (on a slip from 2005)." That was the last time the summons for was updated not printed. That is a criminal court summons that will most likely result in a $100+ fine. Do you use a knife for work? If so you may want to get a letter on your company letter head stating that as a affirmative defense.
Jim as per your quote "if you have to assist the blade opening with your finger = not a gravity knife.
as far as paragon having knives taken away i'll have to look into that. the price of the knives has nothing to do with their legality . "
Look up DA Vance ( here I added the link to a site so you can read all about it: http://www.kniferights.org/ )and you will see all about Paragon or visit the store and they will tell you. The counter guys said they left the expensive one because they are "art". If you are saying a finger touching the blade when flicking open the knife by holding the blade does not count, then you have not been in court much.
I have to say, it is great to sit back and read the law, and perhaps be smart enough to have realised case law supercedes written law, but please stop pretending you know what conditions really are happening in a field/location you do not know. ( I don't mean just Jim on this I mean persons who have not spent most of their lives in NY law enforcememt). Most of the posters here would be in a for a very rude awakening if they spent a day or two in a NYC criminal court. You think you know what goes on, but you do not until you have been there. I have seen defenses that took hours to develope not even allowed to be discussed by the judge. Please speak about what you really know about. I don't know about the best steel in a knife, or how to fix a broken lock, but the law I have a good bit of knowledge on....Thanks rant over....
as far as paragon having knives taken away i'll have to look into that. the price of the knives has nothing to do with their legality . "
Look up DA Vance ( here I added the link to a site so you can read all about it: http://www.kniferights.org/ )and you will see all about Paragon or visit the store and they will tell you. The counter guys said they left the expensive one because they are "art". If you are saying a finger touching the blade when flicking open the knife by holding the blade does not count, then you have not been in court much.
I have to say, it is great to sit back and read the law, and perhaps be smart enough to have realised case law supercedes written law, but please stop pretending you know what conditions really are happening in a field/location you do not know. ( I don't mean just Jim on this I mean persons who have not spent most of their lives in NY law enforcememt). Most of the posters here would be in a for a very rude awakening if they spent a day or two in a NYC criminal court. You think you know what goes on, but you do not until you have been there. I have seen defenses that took hours to develope not even allowed to be discussed by the judge. Please speak about what you really know about. I don't know about the best steel in a knife, or how to fix a broken lock, but the law I have a good bit of knowledge on....Thanks rant over....
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actually i am looking into this... the date on the summons is not legible so i need to find out what is up with this. i believe the court is 314w 54th street. i will call to see what they say. if i have to pay a fine no problem, i will give them debit card over the phone if possible if not show up in person. i just want to make sure i do not have a warrant if the date for court has past. i have been stupid and neglected this as the officer said not to worry about it blah blah blah... so i am not sure of the court date. i wish NY had a way to check summons like they do for moving violations. at the time i was working for a company that did support for currency exchange traders and banks. installed a lot of routers, switches and computers - they all came in sealed boxes, thats about as much use as my knife got a work.
thank you tom.
Your welcome. DId they write it up as Admin Code 10-133(or4) on a pink Criminal court summons? Normally these are returnable to 110 Center street but the transit has a special court for MTA offenses, and not to worry you but they tend to stick you with a higher fine. Does the command on the summons indicate TD 10 ( or another number following TD). It would seems these were transit division officers that stopped you. I strongly suggest that you attend to the summons because if you get stopped for anything you will be put in the system since you failed to appear.
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justice is blind (and sometime deaf and stupid), but in reality you can be arrested for almost anything and my definition of being arrested = handcuffed and brought to the station (even if you are let go afterwards). the OP had his knife in plain view for an officer to see it which is against the law. some parts of the law are vague and can be twisted, but if a raw deal is presented in your lap you have to be able to deal with it as best as possible. knowing the law and playing by the rules (or as close to it as you can) is the right way to go about it. had the OP knew before his incident that having an exposed knife = unlawful, that incident probably wouldn't have occurred. you can have all the knowledge and court experience you want, but the judge can still make any ruling he/she wants.
i am trying to make sense of it, but the summons is barely legible. doesnt matter how much the fine is, i will have to deal with it and pay it. it does suck. i understand about the failed to appear, and if i get stopped they would put me through the system. i do not know if the date has past though... i am serious, i can not read the paper. i am wondering if i can call the court and get any information about it by giving them my summons number? which is the only real legible thing on this pink paper.
even if i am wearing it with the clip out i always have a shirt that covers my jeans pocket, it just happened in that moment that the shirt lifted slightly as i was getting my cell phone. i never show my clip.
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this is why i carry my knife in my pocket.
:thumbup: I wonder how many of these knife arrests were caused by a pocket clip being exposed v. completely concealed in the pocket? I have practiced deep-pocket carry since the summer of 1978 when I got my first lock-blade knife (Gerber FS II). I EDC'd ever since and never had a problem, even in anti-knife jurisdictions like Boston. Out of sight, out of mind.
Correction: ONLY benefit the predatorial while putting good people and their loved ones in harm's way or legal trouble for simply wishing to protect themselves against animalistic assailants. Law Enforcement cannot be everywhere at once to protect us. These laws put you in a position where you have to either pray for LE to arrive in time or possibly die at the hands of some scum bag who never cared about the law while your caring only left you an unarmed victim.