Fixin' it? "Code of ethics"

[RogerP]

If you buy a knife on the secondary then you are not the original owner, thus no warranty. Duh! Pretty standard warranty policy.

Really? I know of several makers that stand behind any knife they made for their lifetime. Period. As long as the knife hasn't been abused, they will warrant their craftsmanship whether the knife is currently in the hands of the first owner or the fifth.

To relate this to the subject matter of a thread, I don't think that someone who has a knife altered by someone other than the original maker can reasonably expect that knife to still be subject to warranty.

Roger

 

[severedthumbs]

Really? I know of several makers that stand behind any knife they made for their lifetime. Period. As long as the knife hasn't been abused, they will warrant their craftsmanship whether the knife is currently in the hands of the first owner or the fifth.

To relate this to the subject matter of a thread, I don't think that someone who has a knife altered by someone other than the original maker can reasonably expect that knife to still be subject to warranty.

Roger

Thanks for being the often needed voice of reason Roger.:thumbup:

Any maker I have ever dealt with has honored warranty whether I was the original owner of the tenth owner. I think Ed's warranty policy is fair and I am sure he would correct any defects in workmanship on a secondary market knife.

 

[Kevin Jones]

Really? I know of several makers that stand behind any knife they made for their lifetime. Period. As long as the knife hasn't been abused, they will warrant their craftsmanship whether the knife is currently in the hands of the first owner or the fifth.

To relate this to the subject matter of a thread, I don't think that someone who has a knife altered by someone other than the original maker can reasonably expect that knife to still be subject to warranty.

Roger

Yes, I know several as well, however only warrantying to the original owner is a pretty standard warranty in general no matter what item/items one is referring too.

I agree that altering a knife by other than original maker should void warranty and again pretty standard policy in warranties whether one is referring to knives or items in general.

In regard to custom knives (ruling out abuse), I wonder how many warranty claims there actually are? I would think VERY FEW. Probably a few more for folders than fixed-blades.

 

[Kevin Jones]

Thanks for being the often needed voice of reason Roger.:thumbup:

Any maker I have ever dealt with has honored warranty whether I was the original owner of the tenth owner. I think Ed's warranty policy is fair and I am sure he would correct any defects in workmanship on a secondary market knife.

Yep, Roger's reasoning helps make up for you.

Do you have that many warranties on custom knives?

 

[danbot]

I think we have enough hypothetical/scenario questions now. How about we delve a litttle deeper into them? Those who are not too fatigued!

Let's take Roger's senario to start.

As an aside - we now understandably regard such knives as the ST-23 / 24 with no small amount of reverence, but let's not lose sight of the fact that they were designed by Bill to be actual fighting knives. If an ST-23-equipped soldier in Vietnam found that an in-country alteration of the handle or guard made the knife easier for him to hold in hand or carry with his gear, does anyone think he would have been condemned by Bill as having committed a "contemptible atrocity" for having that alteration done?

Roger

If said knife were to be modified in-country to suit the soldiers needs, that would actuallly be a selling point for the knife. Not something you would try to hide or just neglect to mention. If it were purposefully "neglected" to be disclosed, that could reasonably be seen as an atrocity in some peoples eyes, and if ignorantly undisclosed, at least a tragedy to some. The lessons learned by those who care to contemplate the known history could be many. If the history is lost (no matter how) , we are left only to speculate.

Should we only be concerned with a rich history once the maker has passed on?

These thoughts are by no means complete in my mind. I'm sure there are many more sides to just this one scenario, and I would love to hear some.

Just some food for thought.

Thanks again.
Dan.

 

[severedthumbs]

Yep, Roger's reasoning helps make up for you.

Do you have that many warranties on custom knives?

lol

not many, only two that have required warranty work. Both folders from top shelf makers, one new from maker and one that I was the second owner. Both were lock up problems that developed over time.

 

[Jose Reyes]

Really? I know of several makers that stand behind any knife they made for their lifetime. Period. As long as the knife hasn't been abused, they will warrant their craftsmanship whether the knife is currently in the hands of the first owner or the fifth.

To relate this to the subject matter of a thread, I don't think that someone who has a knife altered by someone other than the original maker can reasonably expect that knife to still be subject to warranty.

Roger

Rog,

I'm trying not to speak for Ed but I think he covered it here,

"Usually I fix what others have screwed up for the cost of postage. Some knives have been so butchered I don't even try. Damage is not from use but someone with a belt or wheel grinder or mechanical sharpener. I cannot offer a money back guarantee for what some pay for them on the secondary market as the value has increased beyond my ability to purchase them back. For example a knife I originally sold for $85.00 and the new owner just paid $1,000 recently came back,"

I've found his warranty to be as good as any maker I have dealt with. Not that I've ever broken one...

 

[Jose Reyes]

I think we have enough hypothetical/scenario questions now. How about we delve a litttle deeper into them? Those who are not too fatigued!

Let's take Roger's senario to start.



If said knife were to be modified in-country to suit the soldiers needs, that would actuallly be a selling point for the knife. Not something you would try to hide or just neglect to mention. If it were purposefully "neglected" to be disclosed, that could reasonably be seen as an atrocity in some peoples eyes, and if ignorantly undisclosed, at least a tragedy to some. The lessons learned by those who care to contemplate the known history could be many. If the history is lost (no matter how) , we are left only to speculate.

Should we only be concerned with a rich history once the maker has passed on?

These thoughts are by no means complete in my mind. I'm sure there are many more sides to just this one scenario, and I would love to hear some.

Just some food for thought.

Thanks again.
Dan.

I am now buying David a platinum account, you'll have to start your own thread...

 

[RogerP]

Rog,

I'm trying not to speak for Ed but I think he covered it here,

"Usually I fix what others have screwed up for the cost of postage. Some knives have been so butchered I don't even try. Damage is not from use but someone with a belt or wheel grinder or mechanical sharpener. I cannot offer a money back guarantee for what some pay for them on the secondary market as the value has increased beyond my ability to purchase them back. For example a knife I originally sold for $85.00 and the new owner just paid $1,000 recently came back,"

I've found his warranty to be as good as any maker I have dealt with. Not that I've ever broken one...

Correct Jose - and I would have expected no less from someone who cares as passionately for his knives as Ed clearly does. That's why I thought Ed's earlier post referring to the original owner seemed odd, and the question from severedthumbs quite valid. I am glad that Ed chose to respond to this, even if he has chosen to leave several equally valid questions unanswered.

My post was in direct response to Kevin's suggestion that honoring the warranty for the original owner only was pretty standard practice. That may be for warranties in general (though for a great many consumer products, warranties are transferable) but in the context of custom knives, and in my experience, most makers will stand behind their knife regardless of chronology of ownership. Just as Ed clearly does.

I haven't conducted any kind of a poll, but I suspect that this reflects the rule rather than the exception. Refusing to honor your warranty to a subsequent pruchaser would be a sure way to undermine the secondary market for your work - not a good thing.

I agree with Kevin that warranty claims on custom knives are likely very few and far between.

Cheers,

Roger

 

[RogerP]

I think we have enough hypothetical/scenario questions now. How about we delve a litttle deeper into them? Those who are not too fatigued!

Let's take Roger's senario to start.



If said knife were to be modified in-country to suit the soldiers needs, that would actuallly be a selling point for the knife. Not something you would try to hide or just neglect to mention. If it were purposefully "neglected" to be disclosed, that could reasonably be seen as an atrocity in some peoples eyes, and if ignorantly undisclosed, at least a tragedy to some. The lessons learned by those who care to contemplate the known history could be many. If the history is lost (no matter how) , we are left only to speculate.

Should we only be concerned with a rich history once the maker has passed on?

These thoughts are by no means complete in my mind. I'm sure there are many more sides to just this one scenario, and I would love to hear some.

Just some food for thought.

Thanks again.
Dan.

Hey Dan,

I am fatigued! But not by you. Your contributions to this thread have evidenced a meaningful engagement of the issues at hand.

The scenario I put forward was not intended to examine the "morality of disclosure" - which really isn't in issue, but the "morality of secondary refinishing / alteration" - which is very much in issue. When one makes blanket statements about a maker undertaking such work and casts aspersions upon his integrity, scenarios such as this put such statements to the test.

By Ed's statement, the maker who modified that knife in-country to meet that soldier's needs WAS committing a "contemptible atrocity" in altering another maker's work. He did not seek out the original maker's "permission". He did engage in a "collaboration" with the owner to make the knife into something different.

On this, of all days, I think that any reasonable person would be hard pressed to tell that soldier that he had commissioned a "contemptible atrocity". But it has been my position from the outset that this blanket moral condemnation is ultimately not grounded in reason.

Roger

 

[Kevin Jones]

I offer a life time guarantee on my knives to the original owner.

If I buy one of your knives on the secondary market would I not be covered by your warranty?

I don't see what's not understood regarding Ed's statement?

If you buy a knife on the secondary then you are not the original owner, thus no warranty. Duh! Pretty standard warranty policy.

My post was in direct response to Kevin's suggestion that honoring the warranty for the original owner only was pretty standard practice. That may be for warranties in general (though for a great many consumer products, warranties are transferable) but in the context of custom knives, and in my experience, most makers will stand behind their knife regardless of chronology of ownership. Just as Ed clearly does.

I haven't conducted any kind of a poll, but I suspect that this reflects the rule rather than the exception. Refusing to honor your warranty to a subsequent pruchaser would be a sure way to undermine the secondary market for your work - not a good thing.

I agree with Kevin that warranty claims on custom knives are likely very few and far between.
Cheers,

Roger

Don't even know why we are debating this (other than your need to feed your appetite for argument ) as the number of warranty claims as compared to custom knives sold is probably so small I doubt that it's even measurable. Similarly, overall comsumer products in general that have transferable warranties as opposed to not are also SO few that it's probably un-measurable.
The main reason that so many consumer products come with a warranty registration form is so the manufacturer can tract original location of purchase and original ownership by product serial #. You know those annoying little cards that you have to fill out even on an item as insignificant as a $30 electric razor with your personal and product information usually within 30 days or your warranty will be void.

My main reason for doubting the validity of severed's question was that Ed had clearly stated that his warranty was only good for original owners in a previous post, even though he admitted in a later post that he does make some exceptions. Don't know how you translate "some exceptions" into Ed clearly does stand behind his knives regardless of chronology of ownership.

 

[Jose Reyes]

Roger,

You make a good point but maybe sometimes the best knives, like the best art, or love even, are made passionately rather than reasonably. Maybe "contemptible atrocity" is a passionate stance but no different than "brass has no class". Ed used his column to give a warning to new makers about working on other makers knives, using his own opinions and take on the matter. I don't know if he was purposely trying to insult someone with his comments but I don't see the point in continuing to try to pin him down by continuing to explore hypotheticals. His "contemptable atrocity" may be another maker's "shame" or "who cares". Did anyone know Moran well, how do you think he would have felt if a soldier had another smith fix all the "lumps" on one of his handles? Would he have given a "reasonable" response or felt "passionately" about it?

 

[Jose Reyes]

My main reason for doubting the validity of severed's question was that Ed had clearly stated that his warranty was only good for original owners in a previous post, even though he admitted in a later post that he does make some exceptions. Don't know how you translate "some exceptions" into Ed clearly does stand behind his knives regardless of chronology of ownership.

As I understood his response the only difference is he will not refund the secondary market "value". Unless it's been obviously destroyed he'll work on it. I don't own many secondary market pieces but have been given basically the same warranty before.

 

[Ed Fowler]

I thought I stated clearly and by example that I could not buy a knife back from future owners for the price they paid for the knife. Some have increased in value many times, beyond my ability to purchase them back. A knife I originally sold for less than $1,000 recently sold for $6,000 to a third owner. Today I could not afford to buy that knife for $6,000, nor do I feel an obligation to do so. I will repair knives that need it providing they have not been butchered beyond repair.

As an example - years ago one client had the sheep horn ground off and and some black wood fit up for handle by a "Mastersmith" whose name he refused to reveal. The "mastersmith" did terrible job fitting it up - it looked like a blade on a broom handle. The owner sent it back to me wanting me to fix it. Like a fool I did, then he wanted to trade it back to me for another sheep horn handle! I declined!!

On the other hand I welcome knives that have been used hard and try to work them up in a manner that preserves the owners history in the knife.

As I love to study used combat knives, hunters, edc's and learn from them, I hope that one day some of my used knives can be studied by future makers in return.

 

[RogerP]

What does buying a knife back have to do with fixing a defect or replacing that which can't be fixed?

As I understood his response the only difference is he will not refund the secondary market "value". Unless it's been obviously destroyed he'll work on it. I don't own many secondary market pieces but have been given basically the same warranty before.

That was my understanding as well. Clearly (to some, anyway ) Ed's warranty is NOT restricted to the original owner alone, as might have been taken by the passage which Kevin quoted. severed's question helped clear that up.

Roger

 

[stephanfowler]

What does buying a knife back have to do with fixing a defect or replacing that which can't be fixed?



That was my understanding as well. Clearly (to some, anyway ) Ed's warranty is NOT restricted to the original owner alone, as might have been taken by the passage which Kevin quoted. severed's question helped clear that up.

Roger

it seems that Ed actually has two guarantee systems in place:
1) an original owner buyback plan
2) a materials and defects warranty

 

[Jose Reyes]

edited...