Flat vs hollow (again)

M marcinek In my experience, it just doesn't work that way. I admit "through cutting" is done easier with a FFG blade or even a flat blade with a short keen edge (imagine an Old Hickory butcher blade (my best cardboard cutter, by the way). In everyday tasks, hollow ground blades fare just brilliantly. They are often as good, or better slicers. And keep a stronger spine... Just in case you need to pry open a door or a manhole. You know, survival !

Agreed, though, all-around, I prefer a convexed FFG. But there is nothing "wrong" with a hollow grind. They are great for shallow draw cutting, like skinning. Hollow grinds make ideal skinners.

But bad cardboard cutters.

No grind has the magical physics and geometry-defying powers some makers in the UP would lead us to believe.

Right grind for the job is always best.
 
Agreed, though, all-around, I prefer a convexed FFG. But there is nothing "wrong" with a hollow grind. They are great for shallow draw cutting, like skinning. Hollow grinds make ideal skinners.

But bad cardboard cutters.

No grind has the magical physics and geometry-defying powers some makers in the UP would lead us to believe.

Right grind for the job is always best.


No, no, I've been told that a full convex grind out cuts anything...... no matter how thick the convex grind is...it will cut Cannon barrels, swords, knives., small rocks..... I'm sure of it!! Always stronger and cuttier!!!
 
Agreed, though, all-around, I prefer a convexed FFG. But there is nothing "wrong" with a hollow grind. They are great for shallow draw cutting, like skinning. Hollow grinds make ideal skinners.

But bad cardboard cutters.

No grind has the magical physics and geometry-defying powers some makers in the UP would lead us to believe.

Right grind for the job is always best.

Agreed; there is no one-size(grind)-fits all. Geometry right behind th edge is important for how a knife cuts but heading up towards the spine different taks benefit from different shapes. As for the type of grind near the edge, many blades become convex behind the edge after many sharpening sessions with less than precise attention to precise angle. Not that there's anything wrong with that ... just sayin'
 
Agreed, though, all-around, I prefer a convexed FFG. But there is nothing "wrong" with a hollow grind. They are great for shallow draw cutting, like skinning. Hollow grinds make ideal skinners.

But bad cardboard cutters.

No grind has the magical physics and geometry-defying powers some makers in the UP would lead us to believe.

Right grind for the job is always best.

Ah--but there's a trick. First of all, make the hollow grind a full-height one. Secondly, cut with the blade at an oblique angle to the plane of the cardboard so the deflection forces aren't creating a pinching action from the cardboard. Even a little bit slanted out of perpendicular makes a BIG difference in the drag you experience. I've got a cheapo little Italian slipjoint that had a really thick FFG on it, and I reground it to a THIN hollow and it slices cardboard like a dream as long as you cut at a slight tilt. :D
 
Thanks for all your answers.
I will try to post pictures of the blades later, I don't have both with me now. Now to answer the various comments:

First let me make the things clear: I'm not trying to blame hollow blades or state that the FFG is superior, I was just trying to understand why I noticed such a difference between my 2 favorite knives.

Then, as for the Case stockman, I'm 100% sure it's hollow. You can feel it passing your finger over it and despite being mirror polished it does not give a clear reflect like the FFG of the Pioneer does. I guess it's what is called a full hollow as there's not the "hollowing" goes until the top of the blade, not like a buck 110 for example where the back of the blade is not wheeled.

As for the angle of the blades, I consider it to be roughly similar at the edge as I sharpen it myself and on the same stone (1000g then 6000g finish). I know some people prefer to keep the edge a little more coarse (I do it myself on kitchen knives as the initial grip is better for vegetables) but I like smooth finish for EDC. The angle should be around 20deg per side (40deg inclusive) on both. As for the height of the blade you can find all data on both knives here and there: (although my own sotckman is stainless not CV)

https://www.knivesandtools.com/en/p...er-jigged-bone-00204-6375-cv-pocket-knife.htm
https://www.knivesandtools.com/en/pt/-victorinox-pioneer-x.htm

For Marcinek: The picture is great, but the green line of your hollow grind will depend on the size of the wheel used and although I don't have tools to measure it, my finger feeling tells me that the hollow of my stockman is thinner right behind the edge than my Pioneer.
 
I admit that given "thinner blade+full hollow grind", I would have voted for the Stockman. I'm sure Case uses a huge wheel : you can feel the hollow but it certainly isn't as prominent as in this one below (10" wheel) :
Nc3P9hg.jpg

Which, by the way, is an awesome cutter. Didn't try it on carrots but if I apply 42blades' method it may perform better than expected.
So.... I can only suppose your Stockman is sharpened at an obtuser angle than your SAK. And that wouldn't be a surprise because thin blades can be sharpened at relatively high angles without loosing noticeably cutting power. Measuring the sharpening angle on existing blades isn't easy. Felt pen, magnifying lens and all that, yes. Some patient work ahead...
 
Last edited:
I'm going to guess that your Case has a wire edge that's folding over when you're cutting though the stack of Stickie notes.

I generally dislike both Victorinox Inox and Case Trusharp as I find them both gummy on the stone and prone to easily forming a burr and wire edge. It's the primary reason why my large Sodbuster gets so little use and I've experienced the same thing you describe when cutting with it.

IMO, both Buck (420HC) and Opinel (12C27) do a much better job heat treating this class of steel and suggest if you want to play around with difference in grinds, get a US made Buck with BOS heat treatment (avoid their imported knives) and an Opinel. Also toss in a Mora (12C27).

Yes, the Opinel is slightly convexed but you can ignore that to start with.

If you want to find good cutting full flat knives among traditional pocket knives, I recommend older Schrade USA 1095 knives from the used market. They did a really good job on their heat treatment. The 5OT small lockback is full flat ground as are their slipjoints. For that matter, old Scrade USA was really good with their 440A heat treat. Often labeled Schrade+. The massive 51OT was full flat ground.
 
Going off on steel qualities seems, well a bit off, if I may say. This here is specifically a matter of geometry. In my idea, at least. The thickness of the blade (paramount IMO), the grind angle and the sharpening angle are the major kicks.
 
I actually own both a buck 110 and an opinel 8 stainless. The buck is my favorite knife ever but is to big for EDC and scares people around where I live. The opinel is by far the best cutter of my knife collection but I dislike the lock and I found the round handle uncomfortable.

I don't have tools or patience to measure my edge angle (I actually don't know how could I do that) but I will try to sharpen the stockman to a narrower angle.

As fir the burr I did not notice any but I'm no expert :-)
 
There are so many factors that affect cutting efficiency that it's hard to judge which is best: edge geometry, thickness, steel, heat treat, grind, etc., all enter in. Lately I've been leaning to thinner blades, but I can't see a huge amount of difference between my flat ground knives and those with a slight hollow grind.
 
Interesting read.

I have two full size Griptilians. One is a hollow ground 550 and the other is a flat grind 551. Both have the same steel.

I reach for the 551 most of the time but I have assumed that has been because I’ve owned it longer. Maybe that is not why.

It should be fun running some comparison trials.

Any suggestions?
 
Thanks for all your answers.
I will try to post pictures of the blades later, I don't have both with me now. Now to answer the various comments:

First let me make the things clear: I'm not trying to blame hollow blades or state that the FFG is superior, I was just trying to understand why I noticed such a difference between my 2 favorite knives.

Then, as for the Case stockman, I'm 100% sure it's hollow. You can feel it passing your finger over it and despite being mirror polished it does not give a clear reflect like the FFG of the Pioneer does. I guess it's what is called a full hollow as there's not the "hollowing" goes until the top of the blade, not like a buck 110 for example where the back of the blade is not wheeled.

As for the angle of the blades, I consider it to be roughly similar at the edge as I sharpen it myself and on the same stone (1000g then 6000g finish). I know some people prefer to keep the edge a little more coarse (I do it myself on kitchen knives as the initial grip is better for vegetables) but I like smooth finish for EDC. The angle should be around 20deg per side (40deg inclusive) on both. As for the height of the blade you can find all data on both knives here and there: (although my own sotckman is stainless not CV)

https://www.knivesandtools.com/en/p...er-jigged-bone-00204-6375-cv-pocket-knife.htm
https://www.knivesandtools.com/en/pt/-victorinox-pioneer-x.htm
:thumbsup:
From the specs, the stockman is definitely thinner all through. What part of the blade are you cutting with when you start? From the stock pics, the bevel of the stockman widens near the tip indicating that the steel may be thicker there (common on many knives) whereas, as previously mentioned in a post above, the SAK has a distal taper and keeps the thickness behind the edge stable throughout (great blades, IMHO, I am glad that Victorinox took the Wenger blade-style when they merged). I think your experience has nothing at all to do with one being FFG vs the other hollow but has everything to do with the geometry at the edge up to the edge-shoulder, as is true for most knives and cutting. I would test the Stockman by cutting the post-it note stack first by beginning at the tip of the knife, then beginning with the belly of the knife, just seeing how easy it is to begin the cut each time and not necessarily through the entire stack - is one noticeably easier than the other? Then do the same thing with the SAK....

You can end up with a bunch of corner-less stacks of post-its ;)
 
Going off on steel qualities seems, well a bit off, if I may say. This here is specifically a matter of geometry. In my idea, at least. The thickness of the blade (paramount IMO), the grind angle and the sharpening angle are the major kicks.

In my experience, which may be different than yours, I've found that steel quality and edge geometry are related.

I have 2 Case TruSharp knives: a large sodbuster (flat grind) and a fixed blade (hollow grind). On both knives, I've found that a normal 20 DPS (as created by a Lansky rod system) apex is unstable and prone to roll, particularly when cutting on a wooden cutting board or doing wood working type of cutting. I've also found these knives have a more stable edge when finished at 25 DPS. These knives behave similarly in this way despite their different blade geometries. IMO, blade geometry has nothing to do with edge stability. Edge stability depends on edge geometry and the quality of the steel. More to the point, Case's 420HC is comparatively soft, prone to roll and prone to forming a wire edge when I hone it.

The performance I experience has echos of what I read in the OPs post: good initial cutting with quick edge fade. Often, I can feel the burr of the folded wire edge and sometimes can get a few more cuts with stropping or steeling the edge. But I generally don't want to waste time with that.

In contrast, I find I can put 17 DPS edges (again, as measured by the Lansky - which introduces some error due to varying blade height) with my similarly sized Bucks and Opinels. For harder use, I put on a 17 DPS back bevel and a 20DPS micro edge. The difference I find between the Buck and Opinels compared to the Case TruSharp blades is night and day but I'm just reporting on my experience, which may be different than yours.

Regarding blade geometry (as opposed to edge geometry), I think this has a greater impact on things like the ability to throw curls when wood working, the ability to cut non-self-separating materials (e.g. potatoes, cardboard), and the ability to split wood. I'm rather unconvinced that "thinness behind the edge" matters as much as it is often described. My Opinels keep pace with Bucks, despite the Bucks being much thinner "behind the edge". I think thinness behind the edge just makes touch up sharpening easier for most people. An Opinel, like the Bucks from the 70s which had compound hollow grinds, are harder to sharpen compared to the current Buck 2000 profile because you have to remove more metal to get the same result. In short, a thin hollow grind just establishes a very high back bevel. In any event, I have a hard time seeing how the blade geometry is mattering much for this paper cutting exercise other than the fact the SAK is thinner above the cutting edge.

OP... Since you have a 110 and a #8 available, I recommend you rerun your test after giving both a good edge sharpening. I suspect what you'll find is that cutting performance differences will have more to do with which one gives you a more powerful grip (the 110 has the edge here, I'll bet).

Now run the same experiment between the Buck 110 and Opinel 8 while cubing yams or potatoes. I'll suspect you'll find the Opinel easily wins and that has everything to do with the grind. Run the experiment with an Opinel 10 if you want to rule out blade thickness as an issue. Hollow grind with sharp transition shoulders drag in difficult to separate materials like potatoes.
 
Either or does what I need a knife do.
Neither is a "Deal Killer" for me.
Truth to tell, I don't pay much attention to that aspect of my knives.
I honestly couldn't tell you which of these two I have the most of.
I'll guess hollow grind, but only because that is the most common
grind on knives at my price point.
 
So, after another round of sharpening to narrower angle I had some interesting observations:

1- I think the narrow angle on the stockman makes appear the "wire edge" issue that have been mentioned before. Initial cut through post-it block were fine but the knife fast became surprisingly dull (not super dull but unable to grab my nail, that is my fast ok-sharpness test). That did not happen before so I guess I prefer a wider angle on that knife.

2- At narrower angle, the pioneer still perform better.

3- Following the advices of chiral.grolim i noticed something interesting. My initial test was to keep the blade of each knife, roughly at the middle, over the post-it block and then just push through in a vertical move. This way, the pioneer always perform better. However, now trying to cut that post-it corners in a sliding movement (from tip to tang or reverse), the difference virtually disappear! So Victorinox blade wins at push-through cut but Stockman=Victorinox for slide cuts :-)

4- For similar blades, thickness does matter. I tried the same test with a Victorinox Woodsman (same blade as the pioneer but slightly smaller, thinner and less tapered) and it was even more efficient for push cuts. This blade is actually the only one I cut my finger with. Victorinox blades are nasty :-)

As for Pinnah, I 100% agree that Buck and Opinel steel are way better than Vic and Case. Never try my buck for vegetable (only used for dressing rabbits and preparing cutlets from chicken legs) but I'm sure opinel will be better for veggies!

If someone is interested, I can run the same test with my other knives to compare:
- Case 6.5375 SS
- Case 6254 SS (thicker blade)
- Vic Pioneer X
- Vic Woodsman
- Buck 110
- Buck 55 (gorgeous knife, too bad there's not one of the size of a 501)
- Opinel No8
- Higonokami signed by Motosuke Nagao san (great steel but bad blade profile)
- Smith & Wesson HRT folder (Yeah I know, but I was young and I loved this knife!)
 
Back
Top