Flattening waterstones--questions/need help

The tile rubbing stone is listed at 80/60 grit. If you don't add SiC powder (reel mower back-lapping compound works great for stone flattening), the stone is perfect for waterstones. The 60 grit will flatten the rougher stones up to 1k or so and the 80 for finer stones. It isn't as rough as the numbers indicate, the stone flattens and glazes somewhat with use, becoming smoother but still plenty tough enough to work a waterstone. The older versions of this stone were somewhat soft and mostly SiC, the newer ones are much harder and have a bunch of visible binders that make them all but useless for sharpening steel, but very good for lapping and working tile. As mentioned, add some loose grit and it can lap much tougher stones (up to and including Spyderco ceramics), use with just water and it puts a nice finish on JWS. I can't see spending a long dollar on a flattening stone when there are so many other options that work very well, especially when some folks report the flattening stones from various suppliers might not even be flat, and diamond plates are too expensive to use for this work.

I still advocate using as much of the stone surface as possible - you cannot maintain perfect flat, but you might be surprised at how functionally flat a stone can be kept in this manner. Also just plain good practices for working on other stones and keeps one focused on function (goal of technique) instead of form (technique as habit). IMHO one should always be suspicious of ones technique, looking for ways to cut out unnecessary or imprecise motion. I find if I am moving the stone around, turning/spinning it etc to keep the wear even if necessary, I'm far less likely to fall into repetitive action for action's sake.

HH
 
HeavyHanded said:
The tile rubbing stone is listed at 80/60 grit. If you don't add SiC powder (reel mower back-lapping compound works great for stone flattening), the stone is perfect for waterstones. The 60 grit will flatten the rougher stones up to 1k or so and the 80 for finer stones. It isn't as rough as the numbers indicate, the stone flattens and glazes somewhat with use, becoming smoother but still plenty tough enough to work a waterstone. The older versions of this stone were somewhat soft and mostly SiC, the newer ones are much harder and have a bunch of visible binders that make them all but useless for sharpening steel, but very good for lapping and working tile. As mentioned, add some loose grit and it can lap much tougher stones (up to and including Spyderco ceramics), use with just water and it puts a nice finish on JWS. I can't see spending a long dollar on a flattening stone when there are so many other options that work very well, especially when some folks report the flattening stones from various suppliers might not even be flat, and diamond plates are too expensive to use for this work.

I still advocate using as much of the stone surface as possible - you cannot maintain perfect flat, but you might be surprised at how functionally flat a stone can be kept in this manner. Also just plain good practices for working on other stones and keeps one focused on function (goal of technique) instead of form (technique as habit). IMHO one should always be suspicious of ones technique, looking for ways to cut out unnecessary or imprecise motion. I find if I am moving the stone around, turning/spinning it etc to keep the wear even if necessary, I'm far less likely to fall into repetitive action for action's sake.

HH
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Will there ever be an issue where the tile stone itself will need to be flattened? I know what you're talking about and it is only $9, so its worth a try.
 
If you just use it for stone flattening I see no reason for it to ever need flattening itself.
 
^ this. Unless you use it for sharpening something and dish it, shouldn't ever need flattening. It doesn't work well as a sharpening stone anyway.
 
I bought and tried the tile rubbing stone you recommended and it seems to work! In conjunction with the small DMT slurry plate my glass stones are good to go.

I have a question though. I can't tell which side is coarser. Despite different colors either side of the rubbing stone produces a near identical finish and feels similar to touch to my fingers.
 
Bladenoobie1 said:
I bought and tried the tile rubbing stone you recommended and it seems to work! In conjunction with the small DMT slurry plate my glass stones are good to go.

I have a question though. I can't tell which side is coarser. Despite different colors either side of the rubbing stone produces a near identical finish and feels similar to touch to my fingers.
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Its really not that important anyway, but if you look from the side, you should be able to make out the difference in grain structure. One half will have noticeably larger grains making up the stone. As I mentioned, it glazes pretty fast if you aren't using a loose grit with it, and either side is going to be comparable to the commercial flatteners. If you do use it with a loose grit to lap a harder stone, you'll notice pretty quickly which side is which.
 
HwangJino said:
The reality is my stones are flat and I dont use anything other than a knife and onxe a while a nagura to cretmate a slurry.

Mor3 experienced sharpeners that I know say flatteners are for beginners, starting to see this.
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That highly depends on the stone imo.
Sure, on a level 5 hardness Japanese finisher like a Nakayama, a Shoubudani or an Ozuku to name a few, you could maintain a flat stone with just usage and a Tomo-Nagura.
At least that is what I do, after the initial flattening that is.

On softer synthetic stones it would be much harder to keep them flat enough without some sort of regimen to maintain its flatness.

I must admit, for every knife I sharpen, I will have done 15 razors, so my take on flatness of my hones might vary from a knife-sharpeners POV.

My stones are kept flat at all times, I make sure of this by doing a couple figure-eights on them with the appropriate media after each and every honing session.
This will also keep them clean, without glazing and full of swarf.

What lapping plate or system I use depends very much on what stone it is that needs flattening.

On say a 400 grit Naniwa Chosera or a Suehiro debado Gokumyo in the same range, an Atoma 140 or a Shapton DGLP will do splendidly.
On a 20K Gokumyo, a 30K Shapton Pro or a fine Nakayama a 1200 grit Atoma will do the grunt of the work before some sort of Tomo-Nagura are being used to finish off the surface of the stone.

For a knife sharpener that operates in the grit range of what? 220 to 5K or so?
An Atoma 140, 400 or even a 600 would be an awesome tool to have. Again, imho that is.
DMt has a very popular 8*3 inch diamond hone in 325 grit. I personally find it of lesser value than the Atomas, but it works decent enough.
The Shapton DGLP is another fine flattening device, although to some that comes with what might be considered a too hefty price tag.
 
Birnando said:
That highly depends on the stone imo.





My stones are kept flat at all times, I make sure of this by doing a couple figure-eights on them with the appropriate media after each and every honing session.
This will also keep them clean, without glazing and full of swarf.

What lapping plate or system I use depends very much on what stone it is that needs flattening.



For a knife sharpener that operates in the grit range of what? 220 to 5K or so?
An Atoma 140, 400 or even a 600 would be an awesome tool to have. Again, imho that is.
DMt has a very popular 8*3 inch diamond hone in 325 grit. I personally find it of lesser value than the Atomas, but it works decent enough.
The Shapton DGLP is another fine flattening device, although to some that comes with what might be considered a too hefty price tag.
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Very good advice. I clean/flatten most stones after every use. Shapton Glass..not so much, but even they are well cleaned with Nagura, or perhaps an old toothbrush and warm water, depending on the use.
 
Real world- freehand sharpening plus using the whole stone maintains a fairly good surface.
If you're using a guide and looking for a perfectly even bevel, better than you can get with even the best freehand technique, then you'd have to have a perfectly flat stone. In effect a straight razor has its own guide built in, so the same applies.
What works, works- if a person can keep their stone flat enough by using the entire surface to provide the results he needs, what's the downside?
Most people can't keep a very good bevel, and can't keep a stone flat- some can, with practice.
 
I bought the tile rubbing stone and just tried it out on my Nubatama 150. It definitely grinds the Nubatama; makes lots of pink mud. When I started, I could tell the stone was lightly dished from use. After quite a bit of flattening, using figure 8s and straight strokes, it's still dished. It seems better, but I can see daylight when I hold the flattener on top of the 150 and look at the junction of the two.

To give you an idea of how much daylight, I have to hold it up to a light source, and then I have to get the angle of the stone to my eye correct to see the light. If I don't get the angle right, I can't see any light at all. When I do see it, it's very hard to estimate the height of the gap, but it's small and seems to be slowly getting smaller.

I spent probably 25 minutes on this before I got fatigued and decided to stop. Can I get it flat enough to no see daylight between the stones? Or between the 150 and the edge of a ruler? Seems like it might take a while.

Brian.
 
bgentry said:
I bought the tile rubbing stone and just tried it out on my Nubatama 150. It definitely grinds the Nubatama; makes lots of pink mud. When I started, I could tell the stone was lightly dished from use. After quite a bit of flattening, using figure 8s and straight strokes, it's still dished. It seems better, but I can see daylight when I hold the flattener on top of the 150 and look at the junction of the two.

To give you an idea of how much daylight, I have to hold it up to a light source, and then I have to get the angle of the stone to my eye correct to see the light. If I don't get the angle right, I can't see any light at all. When I do see it, it's very hard to estimate the height of the gap, but it's small and seems to be slowly getting smaller.

I spent probably 25 minutes on this before I got fatigued and decided to stop. Can I get it flat enough to no see daylight between the stones? Or between the 150 and the edge of a ruler? Seems like it might take a while.

Brian.
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It's been working acceptable on my shapton glass 500, 1k, and 4k stones. I noticed it loads up and glazes time from time, so I just put the tile rubbing stone on concrete and do figure 8s to expose some new grit. It helps a little bit.
 
If you really want to make a top quality flattening stone out of it, get a diamond sawsall blade and scribe it down like the factory ones. This pic is of a soft Arkansas I did, and I have an old AlumOx combination stone I did both sides on but never took a picture. The diamond sawsall blade will be able to carve the tile rubbing stone no problem, and it'll flatten anything fast as you could want. For all my waterstones and my 500 grit Jointer stone, I used the saw blade to cut off a fat 1/4" from the long end of the stones to use as a matched Nagura stone. Combined with using most of the stone, that small slice works great to keep the stone flat and unloaded. It also comes in real handy when I want to whip up some serious mud - I don't even know that 1/4" is gone, but am real happy to have the matched nagura.

SoftArkielappingstone.jpg
 
Hmm, Just flattening my waterstones, a 1000, and a couple of 4000's, from finest to coarsest.
and I was wondering if there is any use for the dust that gets created? Like mixing it with a waxy or oily substance and then applying that to a "rough" strop, or the same stone it just came from, with some lube?
 
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