Flex in the Becker line

C

Cliff Stamp

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I had the Machax at about a 45 degree angle yesterday (prying from the middle of the top hump) and I stopped at this point as it was a uniformly heat treated steel of unknown composition so I had no idea of what it should be able to do.

What kind of flex will the steel in the Becker line be able to take? It is flexible enough to allow a great enough distortion to break the handle? Will the blade take a set or suddenly snap?

If anyone was curious I was chopping up scrap and needed to pry various 2x4's and such from pressboard as that can't be easily chopped up.

-Cliff
 
I don't think that you, or anyone could break a Machax during any kind of knife-chore with hand pressure alone, but if you do please let everyone know.
 
Cliff,
THe answer of course is 'it depends'. Primarily it depends on the particular model BK&T, and 'where on the blade' you are bending it. In your case, the MACHAX varies in width condsirably along its lenght. Bending one the way you described, about 45 degrees is as much as I have been able to bend one. It did not take a set. We have never damaged any of the handles[scales] during any of the testing we have done, I believe that is because of how thick the stock is in the handle area, and the handle material is pretty tough stuff in its own right.

The steel will take a *slight set*, before reaching a point where it will snap. This is only under extreme pressure. We have not been able to damage any of the thicker stock BK&T's using our hands only. The Magnum Camp and the forthcoming BUSH HOG, being made out of thinner, .188" stock, can be damaged with hand pressure, but you have to really mean to do it.

Did your MACHAX hold up well to your acivities? Did it take a set? I would not think that it would, but Cliff, you do seem to find imaginative ways of destroying knives
wink.gif
I can't imagine anything that you could do with your hands, not involving tools, that would break the scales. This is not issued as a challange, but we want you to be comfortable knowing you can use your purchase without fear of damage.

I hope this doesn't seem like I'm dodging the issue, but what you ask cannot readily be answered. It really depends on each model, and where on the blade the force of the bend is being applied. Spouting off with figures based on only the TACTOOL[for example], which is the stoutest of the group, and hoping that people thought ALL the BK&T's would preform that way would be silly. Some poeple would call it HYPE, which is something I know you appear to really dislike. We do to.

Let me know if there is anything else I can help with, and...HAPPY HOLIDAYS!

------------------
Stay Sharp!
Will Fennell
Camillus Cutlery
www.camillusknives.com
 
Will:

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">The Magnum Camp and the forthcoming BUSH HOG, being made out of thinner, .188" stock, can be damaged with hand pressure</font>
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Yeah but due to the stock thickness I would expect the flex to be rather extreme for those models. When you are prying and the handle is at 90 degrees to the blade then it is obvious that it is probably time to stop and look for a stronger prybar. As well it is not overly safe to put a knife in that severe a position during use because of the danger of violent fracture.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Did your MACHAX hold up well to your acivities? Did it take a set?</font>
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The tip is as strong as I have seen, I would put it up there with the WB and BM. Loosely put I can dig and pry in the strongest wood as hard as I want without fear of the tip breaking. It has significantly more metal than the BM and is quite possibly stronger in that aspect, but the heaviest tip work I have done with that has achieved nothing significant. As for the main blade, I bent it to about 45 degrees a half dozen or so times and it returned to true. I could have bent it further but didn't know the expected behavior so I stopped.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I can't imagine anything that you could do with your hands, not involving tools, that would break the scales.</font>
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I have seen similar (and I use the word very loosely as they were a much lower grade of materials) scales break from shock (splitting wood, pounding on the spine) as well as excessive flex in the handle. But as you said the stock is fairly thick there and odds are the angle of deflection will be low in that region.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">but what you ask cannot readily be answered.</font>
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You would just need to specify the model, distance of applied load etc. . Fallkniven for example has done this. There is a bit of a problem with this though as the specs could be misinterpreted as someone could pry with the blade at a different position that you used and either have a lower flex or lower max load. But you could discuss that in the specs as well - of course this would mean that you would need to induce a set and/or fracture in more than one blade - but you would probably want to do that anyway for variance estimates.

-Cliff
 
I have personally bent the blade tip of a Magnum Camp to about 30 degrees. It had no effect, blade went back to true. This was done by inserting the blade tip two inches between the 2X6's of a park bench and prying. I stopped at 30 degrees because I felt this was more than I would ever ask of this knife. I am working on a personal comparison of the MCK, the Marble's 7" Trailmaker, the CS Recon Tanto and the HI 15" Sirupati for use as backpacking/camp knives. Weight limit is 16oz. The Trailmaker got sent to the factory already and the Magnum Camp beat the Sirupati in speed and ease of chopping a 8" pine log. On hardwoods it it might be a different story, still working on that. Waiting on a Randall #14 to replace the Trailmaker. Maybe add the CS Trailmaster when that comes. Hope this helps.

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The pen is mightier than the sword...but not as much fun!

[This message has been edited by Sporty (edited 12-20-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Sporty (edited 12-20-2000).]
 
What happened to the Trailmaker? In regards to the Sirupati, yes, its wedged shape it a bit too obtuse for such work, there are a couple of wider models that should handle it well though. There were even "slim" AK's offered awhile back, much lighter than the normal models, but with the same shape.

-Cliff

[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 12-20-2000).]
 
I'm betting either the edge chipped badly on the Trailmaker or the handle became loose...

which is it Sporty?
 
Oh, you guys are good. Both. After about 10 chops on a very dry 2X4, the edge folded and then chipped in a way similar to ceramic and the butt loosened up to the point where it fell off the knife later that day with the brass nut that holds it. It was a new board but I was checking it for nails, I just couldn't believe it.




I tried running a file over the undamaged tip area of the blade, lightly as if to sharpen it and little tiny chips were formed as I did it. It was like sharpening a teacup.

So I don't know what happened, it was as if the temper on this knife was bad. I don't know much about the knife making process in particular, but this knife reminded me of a bowie knife I bought years ago that was made in Pakistan and was un-tempered. Also the blade grind seemed particularly unsuited to chopping, though in the ad for the knife says "Both knives will effortlessly sever a two-inch manila rope, clear a trail and cut firewood." I may have just gotten that one in a million knife that got messed up, or the blades on these knives may be better suited to slicing than chopping.



Cliff, will ask Uncle Bill about the slimmer AK's. I briefly tested the Sirupati against the British Army Service model and found it to be about the same in chopping, though the BAS was 25% heavier.

Just got a !!!FACTORY MADE!!!(don't want the NSA to alert Les
smile.gif
) Randall #14 and that thing eats 2X4's! It takes me 45 seconds to cut one board in half. The forward balance is very good on this knife, kind of like the CS Recon Tanto I love so dearly. The handle angle and shape allows for that flick of the wrist that Cliff and Fisk were talking about in another thread. For a 71/2" knife it sort of rocks. However, after all this heavy chopping the aluminum butt loosened up a bit and I had feelings of the Trailmaker all over again. It is a CDT model with leather handles and it has a small nut on the end which I originally did not like the looks of, preferring the hidden ones of Marbles and German Solingen style knives. However the Randall made it possible for me to go get my wrench and tighten it back up again (not something I could do in the woods). After that was done it has not loosened up and I've eaten through about 6 2X4's with it since so maybe the problem will go away. Just wish it cost less!

Anthony, really enjoyed your review of the Brute VS Busse and all the pics you took, great job. Cliff, have read every review you have written and really learned a lot from them, thanks. Any advice from you guys on rules of thumb when it comes to trying to test knives?

 
To clarify, is the Trailmaker from Marbles? Is it 5160 or 52100? How thin is the edge?

Interesting comments about the BAS, I have never used one from HI. I have used a SN1 from GH and remember it as being easily able to outcut a similar sized Sirupati because of the thinner profile. Depends on the wood and method of chopping though.

Concerning the Randall on the 2x4, would the Magnum Camp better that performance, be about the same, or significantly slower?

In regards to reviewing, some general rules of thumb; try to be as descriptive as possible, don't review blades in isolation, and repeat the work you do a few times to make sure that you are really seeing the normal behavior.

As for what to do, there is not a well defined standard for this. A reasonable place to start is just use it for the things that you bought it to do. You can always add to a review as people ask you questions about the blade.

-Cliff
 
Here are some pics of that Trailmaker...
badbl1.JPG



badbl2.JPG


[This message has been edited by Sporty (edited 12-21-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Sporty (edited 12-21-2000).]
 
Thanks for the pics, that seems to me to be an awful lot of damage for what you did even considering the thin grind. I would appreciate knowing what Marbles has to say about it.

-Cliff
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Cliff Stamp:
To clarify, is the Trailmaker from Marbles? Is it 5160 or 52100? How thin is the edge?
</font>
Click to expand...


The edge is very thin, razor like. On Marble's website it says " The new 7-inch and 10-inch Trailmaker™ is laser cut from solid bars of high carbon 5160M steel and subjected to a complicated multi-step process for proper heat treat and temper."

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Interesting comments about the BAS, I have never used one from HI. I have used a SN1 from GH and remember it as being easily able to outcut a similar sized Sirupati because of the thinner profile. Depends on the wood and method of chopping though.</font>
Click to expand...

This Sirupati is not like others I have seen, it is made by Sher and is very light, though it seems he is famous for making heavy blades. It weighs 1lb so it is on the outer extreme of the weight limit for my backpacking/camp knife criteria.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Concerning the Randall on the 2x4, would the Magnum Camp better that performance, be about the same, or significantly slower?</font>
Click to expand...

Yes, I can match the time with the Magnum, but with a few more strokes and tiny bit more effort. This Randall is balanced and inch out from the "trigger finger" toward the blade, which makes it more like a CS knife, blade heavy. The Randall also has a slight curve to the handle, like a bolo, which helps also with chopping. The Magnum is Straight handled and the balance line is right on the trigger finger. Though they weigh exactly the same.

But the butt cap loosened up on me again on the Randall #14 and now I think it's gonna be a problem, I'm tightening the Stainless nut against aluminum and the hole in the butt is almost the same size as the nut. Won't be long till I start to strip aluminum. Before the Trailmaker incident I had A.G. Russell's 1969 Camp Knife, returned it, got a new one, returned it...the stag scales lossened up to the point of rattling on the first chop and the hollow ground blade made it a poor chopper. So the Randall makes it 3 down for holding up to wood chopping. Though in defense of the Randall, I think if it had the micarta handles there would be no problem.

But the two knives that I would readilly take into the deep woods at this point have about as much beauty as a screwdriver, but they work. So I didn't opt for Micarta on the Randall because I am bored with black plastic materials on knives. I chose to do this review, to test the old school against the new, so that I could find a stag or leather handle knife with nice nickle crossguard and a leather sheath that was more "natural."

But man, it just seems these old school knives with hidden tangs and natural materials aren't cutting it or chopping it I mean. I think today, guys like me expect that we can cut down trees with knives, in the old days they probably just went and got an axe. My Spyderco Endura does what most people would have used a 6" Marbles Ideal for in the past. So I guess I expect my seven inch belt knife to cut down trees. But them tree cutting knives are ugly? Whatayagonnado?
smile.gif
I have been thinking about sanding all the black stuff off my Magnum camp and putting on some nice wood handles! -Sporty

[This message has been edited by Sporty (edited 12-21-2000).]
 
Sporty-
Please post your review of the Marbles in the
"Knife Reviews" section along with pictures.

I am sure many forumites would like to see that edge.

APL.

 
Anthony- Yeah I will when the review is done, still waiting on a CS Trailmaster and need to take some more pics. Thanks, Sporty
 
That is not indicative of Marble's products. I've never seen that happen to a Trailmaker. Send it back - they'll replace it. You'll get one that doesn't do that, I'm sure. Quite possibly there could have been a blad that slipped through that was not heat treated properly. True, it should have been caught, but it happens at every knife company. We all just hear about it more, as the internet is such a lightening fast medium to express and post opinions.

I suggest people read more reviews of Marble's products from reputable authors. You'll see they stand the test scrutiny much better than many other brands. I would suggest keeping an open mind when reading articles from authors who have a bias against Marble's, as well.

 
:
That IS Shocking coming from Marble's!!!!
They have a forum over on knifeforums.com and I would suggest posting the information over there.

I have both a new Woodcraft and a Fieldcraft out of the 52100 steel and although neither would be considered choppers, especially the Fieldcraft, I have used them both for light chopping, as well as some fairly heavy prying, with the Woodcraft on very hard woods and experienced nothing adverse from either of the blades. And you would expect the 52100 to be more subject to chipping than the 5160 Marble's uses.
I have been very impressed with the performance of both of my new Marble's as well as the old pre WW II 1095 blade Ideal I bought for $1.25 at a garage sale.

I am also very interested in how this turns out as I am a big fan of Marble's and have been for many, many years.
I am betting they will fix things up for you very quickly!!


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&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;---¥vsa----&gt;®

Each person's work is always a portrait of himself.

---- Samuel Butler.

Khukuri FAQ
Himalayan Imports Website
 
WHO is biased here Jason?

I have a Marbles Sport-99 Maple.
I love it. It was the best distributor closeout I ever bought.

I loved it even more after I sharpened the chips out of it.

Merry Christmas!!

[This message has been edited by Anthony Lombardo (edited 12-21-2000).]
 
Hello,


After using HUNDREDS of bar feet of 5160 in hard use bowies used for chopping i have to say that blade has to in my opinion suffer from a bad heat treatment, i may be wrong but i have never in 13 yrs using 5160 ever have a report like that about a knife using it as the blade steel. Almost looks like it suffered from Massive Grain growth during heat treat.

I took a 6 inch combat patrol and hacked through a 2x10 with knots and then chopped into blocks of micarta with Marion Poff as a witness and had know damage at all ,still shaved even..8-)

Might have been just been a bad one, i bet Marbles makes it right.

Allen

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Allen Blade
Spokane,WA USA

" You can make great knives and sell a few, Or make Great AFFORDABLE knives and sell many"
WEB SITE : http://www.geocities.com/bladecutlery/blade_cutlery_site001.htm
 
I've only ever handled one or two Marbles knives, but they had incredibly sharp edges, and quite thinly ground. I wonder if that might have contributed to the edge flexing, which eventually caused enough fatigue to result in the edge damage you show. That said, the damage looks way worse than one would expect from chopping, even with a very light-duty edge.
 
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