Fly in the ointment - EdgePro and Wicked Edge

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Emerald

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Dec 14, 2010
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Well, since this last discussion on the Wicked Edge began I couldn't leave well enough alone. So, I thought about building and machine that combines the best of both into one "do all" machine.

My criteria was as follows;

Importance (source)

Waterstones (EP)
Stationary edge (WE)
Wider knife spine grip (Emerald)
Multiple stone handles (WE)
Portability (EP)
Replaceable stones (EP)
Super fine tapes (EP)
Blanks for chosen use (EP)
Reduced cost (short and long term) (Emerald)
Non Proprietary parts, except unmounted stones (Emerald)
Leather Strop (WE)
Increased length of stroke (Emerald)
Super fine Diamond Stone for rc63+ (EP & WE)
Inovative base (Emerald)
Higher quality materials

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So here is my list of a DIY machine that does it all;

Part # Title Design Part / Usage Price Material Amount Source
Source

1 Main Body - Base WE Support Frame - 1" thick - 7"L x 3"W 14.53 Aluminum 1 Online Metals Store
2 Knife support/Clamp WE Kinfe centering clamp - 2" thick - 5"L x 3" W 17.31 Aluminum 2 Online Metals Store
3 Support Clamp Screws WE #4 x1.25" 2.00 SS 1 Online Metals Store
4 Support Clamp Screws WE #4 x 2.00" 2.00 SS 1 Online Metals Store
5 Support Clamp Nut WE #4 x Wing nut 2.00 SS 1 Online Metals Store
6 Support Clamp Nut WE #4 x Wing nut 2.00 SS 1 Online Metals Store
7 Angle adjust Bar WE 304SS 1/4" Square Bar-1ft - cut to 2 pieces 6.94 SS 1 Online Metals Store
8 Bar adjust clamp WE 1/4" "U" shape 6.00 SS 2 Online Metals Store
9 Knurled Bar stop WE 1/8th threaded 2.00 SS 2 Online Metals Store
10 Arm Swivel to Adj Clamp WE Connects to Stone Shaft 6.00 Plastic 2 Online Metals Store
11 Stone Shaft WE 304SS 3/16th x 12" 9.96 SS 2 Online Metals Store
12 120 Grit EP Abrasive long life water stone 7.00 Water Stone 1 EdgePro
13 220 Grit EP Abrasive long life water stone 7.00 Water Stone 1 EdgePro
14 320 Grit EP Abrasive long life water stone 7.00 Water Stone 1 EdgePro
15 600 Grit EP Abrasive long life water stone 7.00 Water Stone 1 EdgePro
16 1000 Grit EP Abrasive long life water stone 7.00 Water Stone 1 EdgePro
17 Super Fine Dia Stone EP $20 - I wouldn't purchase - Optional 0 EdgePro
18 3000 Grit EP 15 Tapes 7.00 Polishing Tape 1 EdgePro
19 6000 Grit EP 15 Tapes 7.00 Polishing Tape 1 EdgePro
20 Leather Strop WE Leather - 1 x 6 (12x12 Sheet) 12.00 Leather 2 Jantz
21 Stone Slide Mount TH T6 - 5/8"x 1" x 6" 2 sided (1" total) 9.67 Aluminum 5 Online Metals Store
22 Diamond Paste WE 15,000 Grit 2.85 Optional 0 E-Bay
21 3M 77 EP To attach unmounted stones 17.00 Adhesive 1


Total Cost 161.26

Sorry, it doesn't transfer over from a spreadsheet too well, but this will be quite a machine. Hope you can follow it.

Okay, my idea for a base. Two 1' x 1' Granite tiles. Top one (finished side up) with a center swath cut out of it (5"). The other two bonded (Acraglas or other epoxy) to the bottom tile finished side down. Center cutout to be used for portable pack. When home slid back on to protruding 4 pins (glued in with Acraglas) from the base. Travel base would be 5 x 12. Total Base cost $25.

All would breakdown to fit in a pack similar to the EP Apex. Easily assembled with non-skid silicone feet.

This would not be that much work and the versatility, stone choices, ease of replacement, FAR less expensive to change to stones. Better stropping system (WE). Better materials like SS rods and Aluminum stone/slide carriers.

Also, other materials could be used...like G10 for other parts.

Thoughts?

With your input I want to start making one.
 
Erm, I thought Wicked Edge's selling point was its diamond stones which would never need flattening?
 
It's hard to say without seeing some type of drawing how we think the design would work. But if you think you have a good design then you can give it a try. Maybe only buy one stone to start so that you don't have to invest as much initially. I would plan on having to tweak the design because a design can almost always use improvements after it is put together and used.

Let us know how it progresses and lots of pictures are always good.
 
Frankly, it would look quite similar to the WE. With the following exceptions;

1st; The knife clamp would be wider. This one appears to be one inch wide. If you do a lot of kitchen knives (which should be our most often use) then you're dealing with much longer blades. I'm planning on a 2" width. I want a different vicing/tightening system for the knives (don't have an answer yet) and may well want some hard neoprene (or something like that) for the jaws. Tired of scratches from my EP.

2nd; The stone mounts will be made of aluminum, not plastic. 1 inch wide to accomodate the stones, 5/8th deep to allow 1/8" for each stone and leather (1 inch total). A hole would be drilled longitudinally (3/16") centered along the 6" axis. I'll use a 3/16th drill bit followed by a helical reamer. They work great and really smooth the finish. The stones are all six inches long. Also, diamond stones can be bought as well. So that would take care of the needs of those who want diamonds. Again, bare stones would be far cheaper. Read here to inform yourself about diamonds, their effectiveness and their life; http://sharpeningmadeeasy.com/

By the way, I bought a commercial tumbler and I'll likely tumble all of the Aluminum to give it a smoother more durable finish. I don't care about the color, but I do care about the durability. Hmm, I'm going to have to think about a good case for this thing. Yes, I can sew too (embarassing) but I once sewed a replica Filson vest before they came out with Orange. I used orange cotton duck (12oz) and waxed it upon completion...perfect! Maybe I'll take a shot at this one.

In any case buying unmounted stones are FAR chaeper (like 2/3rds less) and all they use to afix them is 3M 77. I think we can competently do that for ourselves. It would also allow us to use the back side of the stones, that's never been an option on either system. BIG advantage.

I also like the super fine tapes (they can be bought at Jantz in sheet size for pennies on the dollar, a paper cutter would cut them perfectly). They would prepare eveything nicely for the leather strops. Besides they're cheap and sacrificial. Again a FAR cheaper alternative done this way. And I'm speaking from a long term maintenence aspect even more than from an intitial investment.

3rd; The rods that are on the WE look to be 1/8", I'd prefer 3/16" and made of SS. I would start with them long. Is it necessary? I don't know but I'd like to test them. Still lookig for a good means of creating a swivel for the rods. Shouldn't be too tough. Might be able to use some bolster SS to provide it. I'll have to do some testing.

As for the base I think I'm on the right track...with one exception. Most granite is black or dark, I don't like that. We have enough trouble at home seeing things on our black granite countertop so I'd prefer a white backgraound. This might lead me to Marble or Quartz. Either way it has to be heavy. I'll report back on what I find that makes sense. I have a commercial tile cutter so precision is not an issue.

Lastly, I won't start this until after the holiday season. Not enough time with work and shopping to dedicate much to this project.

Keep coming with ideas. you guys build knives and have pretty much every tool in the book. An afternoon of making one of these would be time well spent and I'm certain we could learn a lot together.

Happy Holidays!
 
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Last comment, I think $300 bucks for these manual systems (loaded) is out of control. We can buy a Tormek for not much more and nobody could deny it is the best machine on the market.

The convenience of portability has it's merits but for this kind of money? I'm sorry but I feel we're being taken. Just because we want a keen edge. Just voicing my opinion.

Thoughts?
 
Emerald said:
Last comment, I think $300 bucks for these manual systems (loaded) is out of control. We can buy a Tormek for not much more and nobody could deny it is the best machine on the market.

The convenience of portability has it's merits but for this kind of money? I'm sorry but I feel we're being taken. Just because we want a keen edge. Just voicing my opinion.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

If you can make a system that works at least as good as any of those and sells for less money, then I'm all for it. :thumbup:
 
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So basically what you're planning on doing is ripping off someone else's design and hard work? I mean, you've gone so far as to even list each individual part from each design, and list how much it would cost you to counterfeit each piece. Not real cool in my book.
 
Medic...I couldn't agree with you more! I have no plans to go to market with this. This is a plan for myself only. Now, should you guys care to build one for yourself I still don't view that as an infringment. There will be nothing sold and no financial reward to attain.

In fact, right now I'm working on a means of mounting a tapered ceramic hone for serrated edges. None of the others do even a half a job on this one. I'm hoping to come up with a viable solution. Still a work in process.

Don't worry, there are no retail aspirations for this project. Just as singular says "a better mouse trap". That's all. Oh, but at half the price and better components for those willing to do the work. More upgradeable and more fully useful (ie both sides of the stones). Besides, where do you think I'll be buying my unmounted stones from? Yep, Dale! At $7 bucks a pop you can't go wrong. I won't be buying $60 stones from WE though. That's just ludicrous.

Hope that puts you at ease.
 
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Emerald said:
Medic...I couldn't agree with you more! I have no plans to go to market with this. This is a plan for myself only. Now, should you guys care to build one for yourself I still don't view that as an infringment. There will be nothing sold and no financial reward to attain.

In fact, right now I'm working on a means of mounting a tapered ceramic hone for serrated edges. None of the others do even a half a job on this one. I'm hoping to come up with a viable solution. Still a work in process.

Don't worry, there are no retail aspirations for this project. Just as singular says "a better mouse trap". That's all. Oh, but at half the price and better components for those willing to do the work. More upgradeable and more fully useful (ie both sides of the stones). Besides, where do you think I'll be buying my unmounted stones from? Yep, Dale! At $7 bucks a pop you can't go wrong. I won't be buying $60 stones from WE though. That's just ludicrous.

Hope that puts you at ease.
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Good for you! I don't believe there's any rule or law against building your own system for non-commercial personal use. And here's another hint: Ben buys his stones from Boride Abrasives. If you buy in bulk right from Boride (sets of 12 stones) they can be had for $3/stone more or less. I'm not trying to undercut Ben, but I'm more than excited about the possibility of setting up a group buy for some stones. Good luck.
 
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Blade...now here is nother example of collaberation that can benefit all of us; Heck, that little tid bit could bring the cost down by close to $50 per unit. That's big.

Blade, thank you!!

Anyone know where to get a tapered 6" ceramic stone? Say 1000 to 1200 grit? I think I've figued out how to mount a replaceable/removeable mount on a rod fixture. These would break easily. I know, one side gray (lower grit) and one side white (higher grit).

This this is taking shape. I'm excited to get working on it.
 
I use straight rods with sand paper rather than tapered rods when sharpening serrations. If you know of a good technique to use tapered rods, I'd love to hear about it.

I'm actually about to make a new sharpener myself after the new year. So far, my idea looks more like an EP than a WEPS. I'm looking forward to seeing what you come up with, especially how you design your clamp.
 
Emerald said:
We can buy a Tormek for not much more and nobody could deny it is the best machine on the market.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

Au contraire, Mssr. :p

I think many could argue that the Tormek is far from being the best machine on the market.

Actually, many consider it rather pedestrian! :thumbdn::thumbdn:
 
Actually, my research is taking me in a different direction. First, with regard to the Tormek, the idea had less to do with the product itself and more to do with perceived value. A motorized system that is quite complete with many competent add ons verses a utilitarian machine made of hand without near the
precision of workmanship. To me, that is the comparison. It is also a significant compromise. "Pedestrian" is not the point but I will disagree on that point as well. The Tormek is a well made machine with no loss of useful additional features. It's still regarded as one of the best.

My research has now taken me in a different direction. My focus now is more on the quality of the stones. Boride Engineered Abrasives is the makers of the EP stones so I have been looking more closely at their technology. There is one of their stones that’s really caught my fancy, it is in their General Purpose Polishing Stones-Silicon Carbide. The model of interest for me is the CS-HD - Harder stone than CS-M, excellent for hardened steel, 47-63Rc. They can also be ordered ticker that in the EP so there life would be considerably longer.

In fact I'm about to make a minimum order of all that are of interest to me. In fact it is one of the only stones capable of handling virtually any knife metal.

The minimum order for any of them is 12 so it requires a significant investment. Just to start me out I'm ordering enough machine parts to make 5-10 machines. I've refined some of the products to reflect the massive difference in quality.

In the end the unit has seen an upgrade in every component. One negative…it’s not lighter. The base is made of fine density white quartz. Two 1 foot square tiles the bottom finish down. The top is cut into 3 sections (5” center section …potable). The remaining two pieces are to be bonded and the center section will be held on by urethane coated pins. The main base willl have rubber feet glued with Acraglas. One new stone...a 3mm 1200 grit 4" ceramic mounted for serrations. Hope this works, it's expensive.

So, the final result; more expensive and more solidly built.
I'm building 5 umits at first. they'll not br cheap but they'll be much higher quality.
 
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Emerald said:
Medic...I couldn't agree with you more! I have no plans to go to market with this. This is a plan for myself only.
Click to expand...

Emerald said:
So, the final result; more expensive and more solidly built.
I'm building 5 umits at first. they'll not br cheap but they'll be much higher quality.
Click to expand...

Wow, 5 units for yourself only eh? Ordering enough parts to make 5-10 machines...? Which is it??
 
The stones I had to buy in lots of 12. I bought the components for 4-5 units (before I bought the stones). Once I saw the price of the Shaptons and the Chosera Stones I thought I cold take a chance on these. I bought 63 stones (1/4x1x6" - 120, 220, 400, 600, 1000 and 3 3mm x 4" super ceramic rods (1200 grit) to mount for serration sharpening). If they work well I'll give a couple away to friends and sell some of the rest here for cost. Then I'll keep some of the stones. maybe make some more.

These look look like superb stones. Boride CS-HD. Their top on the line stones to $6.34 per stone. Sure beasts $38 a stone for the other two...rediculous! The tapes and leather will come from Jantz. Plenty of blanks.

I'm going to make the knife clamp less wide so it can sharpen Janpanese knives They're very narrow. Stll going to make the clamp 2" wide for a better grip though; Won't know until I work on them.
 
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Medic1210 said:
Wow, 5 units for yourself only eh? Ordering enough parts to make 5-10 machines...? Which is it??
Click to expand...

Emerald is reading and trying new things. He made a plan but plans change as you go along. That's how R&D works. Pointing out obvious inconsistencies or changes doesn't help and is just annoying. There will probably be more changes later. He is nice enough to let us in on the process of making a new machine. I appreciate that.
 
changeofseasons said:
Emerald is reading and trying new things. He made a plan but plans change as you go along. That's how R&D works. Pointing out obvious inconsistencies or changes doesn't help and is just annoying. There will probably be more changes later. He is nice enough to let us in on the process of making a new machine. I appreciate that.
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I agree totally with you change.
 
changeofseasons said:
Emerald is reading and trying new things. He made a plan but plans change as you go along. That's how R&D works. Pointing out obvious inconsistencies or changes doesn't help and is just annoying. There will probably be more changes later. He is nice enough to let us in on the process of making a new machine. I appreciate that.
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Pointing out inconsistencies? Really? I called him out for blatantly pursuing ripping off two designs, and he assured me/us that he had no intentions of going to market with the piece, that he was just doing it for his own personal use. Then, he's pretty much proving me right by saying he's bought enough material for 5 to 10 units and will start off making 5. Sorry, but I believe in calling a spade a spade. Sorry if you find that annoying. I think it's pretty low class to come on here and blatantly try to rip off a design that someone put a lot of hard work in developing.
 
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