Recommendation? Folder build thread, design & WIP - input needed

[ScooterG]

Titanium bolsters, zirconium scales, with offsetting colored hardware/backspacer.. PVD coated Cruwear in that sheeps-foot-ish grind.

How ever it ends up, I'm in!

 

[115Italian]

Awesome design. Good luck with everything. I would consider making a fixed blade version as well. That design could work well as a fixed blade. I wonder if you should get the ball rolling with a fixed blade version first, for example say 5 of them, then jump into the folder. You’ve made a good name for yourself around here, I think success will come quickly. I look forward to seeing things “unfold”.

 

[b00n]

Random Suggestion: Lanyard Hole Delete. I personally don't care for Lanyards and I think it would look nicer without the hole in the scale, so you could keep all the backspacers identical just keep the scales without the holes, if a customer wants one, it should be easy enough to drill later by request.

 

[Pendexter]

I appreciate the time you took to respond! Its interesting to see how a knife designer is thinking through his process.

Imho, if a folder is properly made w/ everything lined up and parallel/flat, the greatest hindrance to smooth opening/closing is the detent drag that occurs on the blade tang. This comes from the amount of tension on the lock bar (and of course the finish of the detent track to some extent). There is a fine balance between having the lockbar tension set properly w/ semi early lock up (~20-30%) w/ the right amount of force required to disengage.

For example, I've checked the lbs of force required to fully disengage the lockbar and detent ball on shirogorovs, and it's generally ~2 lbs. The 3 smoothest folders I think I've ever felt are grimsmo, shirogorov, and Brian Nadeau's Cyclone. I've got to examine each pretty well so that is a huge benefit to me. But his points about the flipper tabs have me thinking about slightly re-designing this with a little more 'deployment angle' - although this can be mostly overcome (as he admits in the video) with proper pivot action and detent lock up.

Have you considered the Hoback Rolling Detent? I'm not sure how the HRD is specifically designed, but I imagine that its similar to this:

The HRD is also slightly adjustable, so you can tune the detent break force to your liking and loctite it in. Plus there is less drag when compared to a set ball that is press fit into the detent hole.

yes it's designed for 2 fingers to fit in the forward groove. In addition to moving the fuller up towards the spine, I could also mod the handle like this:

I've only been interested in knives since I bought my PM2 about a year and a half ago. So I haven't handled a ton of knifes personally. So take my opinion with a grain of salt.

However, I do dive deeply into whatever my current interest happens to be. One reviewer that I like runs everydaycommentary. I'm not 100% sure on linking policies, but if you search for the blog and the zt0562, it should come right up in google. Here's a quote regarding the ZT0562:

"I have referenced this before, but it bears repeating--as the hand closes to tighten one's grip, the fingers come together. If there is something that impedes the fingers coming together is prevents you from getting the strongest possible grip. This came from Kyle Ver Steeg, a hand surgeon. Its something he has referenced many times and in doing some research of my own, it is 100% true."

Kyle is a knifemaker as well as a surgeon, and none of his knives have grooves. I have knives with and without finger grooves, and it doesn't make that much of a difference to me personally. But then again, I don't have that many opportunities to really "hard use" my knives. Since your knives will probably be more showpieces than hard used, I don't know if it will make a difference in the long run. but it's something to think about.

I'm also probably going to do several w/ out the fuller to allow for more options... any recommendations on percentages of those w/ vs those without? <- for anyone to chime in on...

Best bet is to gauge interest and see how many people want the fuller. I think that the fuller or a swedge would both impart a design flair as well as reduce weight, so it's a market trend issue more than anything else. I don't know if anyone's going to be using it as a blood groove while processing game with their collectible.

I had not considered that but now that you mention it, that's a good idea. I wonder how much weight that would save. I do have an idea on an ultralight version of this for the future though, it would be sick. 2 x CF scales w/ a steel lockbar insert (no liners) and standoffs instead of a backspacer.

Just curious, how much does your wood bolstered prototype weight now?

I had a bunch of 1/4" pivots made to fit Hinderer XM18's so that's what I used in the proto and the 3d printed version (tools for this type pivot are very plentiful). But I think I will probalby switch for a double t-8 torx screws fastener w/ a barrel pivot. So this way, as you point out, it could be fully disassembled w/ a t8 and t6 torx bit. Either way it would be a 2-3 tool operation (since you would need another tool on the back-side of the pivot possibly).

I'm not sure if captive pivot was the correct term to use. When I mentioned captive pivot in my first post, I meant something like this:

where the pivot does not spin freely on the back side. That way you'd only need 2 tools. A t6 and a t8.
There are different ways of locking the pivot down. Detent balls, "D" shaped pivots, etc. Just an idea.

They can feel amazing, trust me. The hinderer he used in the video was not adjusted properly. When adjusted and dialed in properly the blade should basically fall shut or open w/ out any play.

I was looking over the structx chart, and it's very interesting. I've been meaning to try a high quality teflon washer one of these days.
From my web browsing, it looks like ball bearings have even less friction, with a coefficient at .0010 to .0020 vs the .0040 of the teflon and the .3500 of the PB. Looking at those numbers, I'm surprised that so many people like PB...

I am setting this up from the beginning to work w/ a nice finger choil if desired. I think it would be really nice to choke up in a forward grip in certain circumstances.

Thanks so much for your input!!

My pleasure!

 

[REK Knives]

I appreciate the time you took to respond! Its interesting to see how a knife designer is thinking through his process.



Have you considered the Hoback Rolling Detent? I'm not sure how the HRD is specifically designed, but I imagine that its similar to this:

The HRD is also slightly adjustable, so you can tune the detent break force to your liking and loctite it in. Plus there is less drag when compared to a set ball that is press fit into the detent hole.

Thanks for the diagram, yes it may be designed like that I don't know. However, tuning the HRB detent doesn't exactly work like that regarding the tuning. You can't just screw it in and out to get the tension set properly (the detent ball depth must be set up by the maker in the shop as the knife is being built). What determines the proper detent lockup/tension are mainly 2 things:

1. the lockbar tension (how far you have the lockbar pushed over)
2. where the detent hole is located in the blade tang in relation to the detent ball in the lock bar when the blade is fully closed (if you have to large of a hole, or have it too much towards the edge side or detent track side, you will have detent play when closed - too far back will not allow the detent ball to sit in the detent hole in the blade tang and will make for a weak detent).

The height of the detent ball sitting out of the lock bar does play a role however, and can affect the detent lockup but ONLY in conjunction w/ the hole size & location. What I mean by it needing to be set up by the maker in the shop is that it really should be done in this order: detent ball depth in the lockbar set first and then dialing in the hole in the blade tang. Here are the 2 areas which the detent ball depth in the lockbar will affect:

1. if the ball falls out over time (too shallow will allow it to get pulled as it's used because it doesn't have enough traction to hold it in the hole)
2. the snappiness/crispness of the 'break' when opening - if it's sitting out too much (as in the above point) it will really grab as it receives enough force to get it out of the detent hole in the blade tang but you will have the issue stated above. If too shallow then even if you have it fully seated in the detent hole in the tang it won't be a crisp, snappy break.

So in the case of the HRB, since the hole is already drilled in a specific location w/ a specific diameter, if you screw the HRB in further then all that does is create additional drag on the blade tang (making the lockbar sit more proud as the blade is closing). If you screw it out more then you will have detent play. There is a sweet spot where it really should be, which is fully seated in the detent hole on the tang, but with no play.

After handling several Hoback knives I'm not convinced that the HRB does anything to improve the action, even though in theory it's a neat idea. I'm not convinced that the ball is in fact rolling on the tang even as I have not seen any documentation showing that it's not just dragging. I've felt other knives that do not have a 'rolling detent' that are smoother than Jake's knives.

I do have 3 HRB's here just in case I ever need to repair knives w/ them though =)

"I have referenced this before, but it bears repeating--as the hand closes to tighten one's grip, the fingers come together. If there is something that impedes the fingers coming together is prevents you from getting the strongest possible grip. This came from Kyle Ver Steeg, a hand surgeon. Its something he has referenced many times and in doing some research of my own, it is 100% true."

Kyle is a knifemaker as well as a surgeon, and none of his knives have grooves. I have knives with and without finger grooves, and it doesn't make that much of a difference to me personally. But then again, I don't have that many opportunities to really "hard use" my knives. Since your knives will probably be more showpieces than hard used, I don't know if it will make a difference in the long run. but it's something to think about.

Please pm me or post pics of his knives, I am curious to see how they are designed. From what I can tell from his blog he's an Attorney not a doctor, but maybe I'm wrong. I didn't see any links for knives on his blog though, unfortunately.

Just curious, how much does your wood bolstered prototype weight now?

It weights 6.2oz right now. But that's w/ .182" thick blade stock, no swedge, low grind heights and non-skeletonized liners. So I think I can certainly get the weight down =)

I'm not sure if captive pivot was the correct term to use. When I mentioned captive pivot in my first post, I meant something like this:

where the pivot does not spin freely on the back side. That way you'd only need 2 tools. A t6 and a t8.
There are different ways of locking the pivot down. Detent balls, "D" shaped pivots, etc. Just an idea.

Yes I am familiar and understood what you are saying, I'm just not sure I want to mess w/ it on this model. I do however, want to make sure the pivot nut isn't free-spinning w/ no way to capture that side (like on a shiro).




My pleasure![/QUOTE]

 

[Pendexter]

I appreciate your explanation regarding lock tension. I've been pondering the issue of adjustable detent strength, it seems that I have much more to ponder.

If you type Kyle Ver Steeg + knives into google, his website pops up. I believe you may be looking at the website of another person.

His knives are fixed blades but he's definitely a doctor, not a lawyer.

This is from his website.

I'm not saying that there is a right or wrong way to design a handle or that I know what I'm talking about in any way. There are obviously many different handle configurations that are known to be ergonomic. At some point before I die, I'd like to design a knife, and the handle was something that I was thinking about when I first saw your post. That's why I mentioned it.

 

[jstrange]

^
Speaking of fixed blades, I would love you to make some nice, thin, slicey fixed blades that can be pocket carried Josh. That would be the bee’s knees.

 

[REK Knives]

Hey guys, just wanted to post an update on this folder build, thanks for everyone's input! Just got my own subforum, it can be viewed there!