Folder Features: Necessity and Excess

[Kaizen1]

I'm not interested in starting another "Hard Use"-vs-other knife justification thread. That being said, I am interested in seeing what people believe are the absolute necessary features in folders.

This thread was somewhat prompted because people kept on going on about why hard use knives were excessive and completely ignored my (yes, there is a self centered focus as a basis for starting this thread) surely legitimate responses to that particular objection.

My response is this:

We capable of finding knives that cost under $30 to accomplish any reasonable knife task that we can think of. So for anyone to talk about about excessive features in hard use knives while owning a knife that is worth more than $30, is completely and utterly hypocritical.

Any time we go past roughly that price point, we are in fact engaging in the purchase of a knife with excessive features. You don't consider price point to be a "feature" of a knife? I would disagree, but let's concede that point and assume it's not. What makes a knife cost more than $30? Materials, labor, fit/finish, etc. Those things are arguably excessive (labor can be streamlined/ done in cheaper countries, higher end steels are never "necessary", etc) and certainly features of knives, so we're back to my original point.

By "excess" I refer to that which is not necessary. Some people seem to have forgotten how to distinguish between necessity and excessiveness. You think your grandpappy got along just fine with a slippie? Well his grandpappy's pappy's pappy was able to survive with a sharpened rock, his teeth and good ol' caveman ingenuity.

Everything above these things are a matter of comfort, convenience and luxury.

So the point of this thread is:
-I felt like ranting, but would like to hear some good objections to my point.
-What features do you think are absolutely necessary in a folder?
-Make the comment: This is a knife forum. We all have different preferences. I see no good reason to treat other peoples' preference like they're beneath ours. Not to mention that it's completely hypocritical and makes you look like a prejudging douche. This is for anyone, not just one side or another.

 

[philwar]

Good points. +1 :thumbup:

 

[jay2pointoh]

I like excessive features in knives. Makes them fun to use and collect. But I agree that I don't need anything more than my Rat-1 or Tenacious. For me, I NEED a comfortable handle and a moderately hardened steel i.e. AUS8 or 440C. Do I NEED supersteel? No. Do I like the superior rust and wear resistance? Yes. Same goes for G-10, tip up carry, lanyard holes, fancy locks, cool colors, waranties, assisted opening etc. I have all of these things, but I do not NEED them. I just like them. It is not wrong to have excess features on your knife, just don't make others feel bad for not having them.

 

[Kaizen1]

I like excessive features in knives. Makes them fun to use and collect. But I agree that I don't need anything more than my Rat-1 or Tenacious. For me, I NEED a comfortable handle and a moderately hardened steel i.e. AUS8 or 440C. Do I NEED supersteel? No. Do I like the superior rust and wear resistance? Yes. Same goes for G-10, tip up carry, lanyard holes, fancy locks, cool colors, waranties, assisted opening etc. I have all of these things, but I do not NEED them. I just like them. It is not wrong to have excess features on your knife, just don't make others feel bad for not having them.

But who exactly has attempted this? I haven't seen anyone making fun of slip joint users or gentleman's knife users. Certainly no one makes fun of SAK/Opinel/etc users. What we have seen over the past couple of weeks are people essentially calling people that use hard use knives or locking folders ignorant on how to "properly" use knives. We've seen people question other people's intelligence because they happen to like or prefer locking/hard use folders. And on top of this we continue to see posts by these very people claiming to be victimized in some way. That the hard use folder guys are supposedly making fun of slip joint users or non-hard use folder users. It's just not happening. Any posts that may be construed as negative toward people who don't use locking/hard use folders have pretty much been a defense from these ridiculous, hypocritical posts about how locking/etc folders have excessive features. The point of this thread is that (I believe) 95%+ of all of the knives on the market nowadays have some excessive feature or another. I've yet to see any reasonable objection to my points.

 

[oguruma]

Truth be told, I would be just fine with a $20 Victorinox Cadet as I would be with a $400 Sebenza...

 

[Kaizen1]

Truth be told, I would be just fine with a $20 Victorinox Cadet as I would be with a $400 Sebenza...

I have a $600 custom Strider and a $40 Case Mini Trapper in my pocket right now. I love em both.

 

[Charlie Mike]

My requirements for a tactical folder (not an auto or traditional or bali)...

Must be tip up and drilled for left and right carry. The clip should leave approx 1.5" of butt sticking out of the pocket. I hate low ride clips. If it's a liner lock, I prefer thick liners. Current production Emerson locking liners are as thin as I'll go. I prefer a beefy framelock at a thickness of .160" and the non locking scale better have a liner if it isn't full Ti. I'd prefer a blade thicker than .125 as well. The more thicker, the more lifetime the lock has as far as lock travel. Lanyard hole is a must. The lanyard works as a grip extension for wave draws.

If it doesn't have a wave, it has to have enough real estate on the thumb ramp area so I can cut a wave.

 

[Habbekuk]

Dear mister Kaizen1,
Sorry, but I hate questions like the one you posed. They make me do some serious soul-searching. At the moment I'm travelling for the job. I carry a tenacious, a modified stainless Opinel and the blades that are attached to my leatherman wave. The tenacious can handle alll the hard work I throw at it, opening a couple of dozen bags of chemicals and after that it is still able to cut the top of an IBC container so I can insert a submerged pump to empty it. At night I just strop it and it is fighting fit for the next day. The opinel I use for the cheese and sausage sandwiches (I'm in France now). It doesn't get dull from that. Both blades are shaving sharp, maybe more sharp than is needed for their daily tasks. The blades in the leatherman hardly get used.
So why do I still keep on buying folders that are much more expensive than the tenacious and opinel combined?
I think I've got a blade problem.
"I'm habbekuk and I have a blade problem."

 

[Toyz]

I think this is no different that a "Chevy" vs "Ferrari" and "Breitling" vs a "Timex" arguements.

To me, there is an art in making a fine watch, automobile, knife and gun. Craftsmanship, materials, design, engineering, feel, expertise in the trade - all come together to enlighten the senses.

So some may look at a $400 knife and say - "Gee - I can get the same results from a $30 knife" - and it be a true statement.

I look at a $400 knife and say - "Gee - look at the fit and finish, choice of materials, blade grind, way it feels in the hand, incredible amount of engineering" - and it also be a true statement.

I truly believe value is perception. I also believe not everything is worth the price tag put on it - it is up to each individual to determine the value.

Do I think it's worth someone buying and carrying a $600 custom knife when they cannot pay the rent or afford groceries - absolutely not. That's when a $30 knife makes sense. Do I think it's worth it for a landscaper to use a Darrel Ralph to cut open burlap all day long - nope. Again - cheaper options make sense.

I am an engineer by trade - and I also like to build things in my spare time - and I think if you spend any time trying to design and manufacture something - especially to tight tolerances - you know why it is a little special to own a Ferrari or wear a Breitling.

I prefer titanium handles, premium steel, tight fit and finish, oversized pivot, strong pocket clip and yes, a little "exclusivity" in my knives. Nothing gives me pleasure like showing someone who has an interest in knives a Chris Reeve or a William Henry or a host of others. You get to tell the story, show off a little of your knowledge, get the other person excited because they probably never heard of the maker, and maybe elevate that persons interest to get a little more educated about knives.

I get excited when I see a late model Ferrari or Lamborghini drive past me on the expressway.

I'll get off my soapbox now.

 

[bubblewhip]

Nothing is necessary except a "sharp enough" blade (which could be any degree of sharpness), but features are better. I would like a lock, I would like a high wear steel, I would like indestructible plastics like FRN, G10, and Micarta. And I would like a super lock system capable of holding 2 cars on the handle like the Cold Steel Tri Ad lock. Why? Because it would be better than not having them.

More capability>Less capability

 

[znode]

I am an engineer by trade - and I also like to build things in my spare time - and I think if you spend any time trying to design and manufacture something - especially to tight tolerances - you know why it is a little special to own a Ferrari or wear a Breitling.

And, the knife hobby has a whole lot less of inheritance-rich a**holes.

 

[Tostig]

But who exactly has attempted this? I haven't seen anyone making fun of slip joint users or gentleman's knife users. Certainly no one makes fun of SAK/Opinel/etc users. What we have seen over the past couple of weeks are people essentially calling people that use hard use knives or locking folders ignorant on how to "properly" use knives. We've seen people question other people's intelligence because they happen to like or prefer locking/hard use folders. And on top of this we continue to see posts by these very people claiming to be victimized in some way. That the hard use folder guys are supposedly making fun of slip joint users or non-hard use folder users. It's just not happening. Any posts that may be construed as negative toward people who don't use locking/hard use folders have pretty much been a defense from these ridiculous, hypocritical posts about how locking/etc folders have excessive features. The point of this thread is that (I believe) 95%+ of all of the knives on the market nowadays have some excessive feature or another. I've yet to see any reasonable objection to my points.

You will find this behavior on any forum, no matter the subject matter. Most folks wants to blow their horn and blast their opinion to anyone and everyone who will stop long enough to listen ( read).

I keep in mind that there is fact then there is opinion and facts matter to me much more than opinions , that said using my own logic I cannot get too upset by what is opined on this particualr forum , no matter how inane it may be.

Excessive features ?

You mean bells and whistles ?

Most 'crowds' on here get upset when the other 'crowd' dises something they consider sacred and above judgement.
The Sebenza for example , criticize one for any reason and you will immediatly be dismissed as someone who just doesnt know what they are talking about , period. ( not to mention jumped upon , called names , etc..).(jerkit symbol temptation here..)
When that sort of behavior becomes the norm for a forum then what is the point of even bringing a lot of topics up since you will only be shouted down by those who for some reason feel they have something personal at stake.
( which I find rather humorous )

So let me bring up some things I've been wondering egarding some of these 'hard use' knives.

The Hinderer lockstop ( if there's a different term feel free to correct me ) is it really necessary on a framelock ?
Yes , we all know the XM-18 is one badass knife , I myself would love to own one for use , if I could afford one which I cannot - but ! is the lockstop really necessary ?? I have several framelocks , I always EDC one, I have never even came close to moving the lockbar too far in the opposite direction, never.
I do know what it is there for. I understand the concept. I have one on my Kershaw OD-1 , that said in my opinion it falls into the bells and whistles category.
The above was just an example off the top of my head.

Seems as though these 'had use' knives are being created with more and more different features and I think it is to set them even farther apart from the rest ?

agh , i gotta get back to work. duty calls.

Tostig

 

[NeoClassic]

-What features do you think are absolutely necessary in a folder?

For me, personally:

1- Classic edge geometry (i.e. no funky blade grinds of varying angles or odd shapes)
2- Plain edge
3- Simple handle shape that easily allows multiple grips and is comfortable to use for extended periods
4- Nice looking and well proportioned (usually contributes to point #3)
5- Weighs as little as possible, preferably under 3 or 4 ounces
6- Thin blade -- definitely well under 1/8" (goes hand in hand w/ #5)
7- 4 inches closed, or less
8- Slipjoint, lockback or whatever you'd call the Opinel's locking mechanism
9- Well built with quality materials (don't have to be the most expensive materials, though)

I don't begrudge anyone choosing a knife different than one I'd prefer myself. And I'm not offended if someone thinks my taste in knives is stupid, inferior, lame or whatever. Everyone's entitled to an opinion and should be able to respectfully express it on this forum.

It's being disrespectful that gets us in trouble -- but so does being overly sensitive, I've found.

 

[TLR]

OP- By your definition and thoughts wouldn't a folding knife in and of itself be considered "excessive" ? Who "really" needs a knife to fold. The pivot in and of itself isn't "necessary." Furthermore why do we really need steel when obsidian gets you such a sharp edge?

How do you justify any refinements as "necessity" or "excess" ??

just playing a little devil's advocate.

 

[NeoClassic]

I get excited when I see a late model Ferrari or Lamborghini drive past me on the expressway.

Me too, but I wouldn't want to own one.

Same goes for a Sebenza, which I can actually afford.

 

[jay2pointoh]

And, the knife hobby has a whole lot less of inheritance-rich a**holes.

There is no need to use that tone. You don't have to be a rich person to have nice things. And being wealthy does not constitute being of a certain mannerism. Take our friend RxEnergy. Do you see how many Benchmades he has? Does that mean he is filthy rich? He might be, but it does not absolutely mean he is. And to that degree it does not mean he is a jerk either. Stay on topic and post your hostile opinions in W&C.

 

[Kaizen1]

I think this is no different that a "Chevy" vs "Ferrari" and "Breitling" vs a "Timex" arguements.

I disagree. The point for starting this particular thread is to point out what features are necessary for reasonable knife tasks. The "hard use" vs other debate may be similar, but not so much the point of this thread.

 

[Kaizen1]

So let me bring up some things I've been wondering egarding some of these 'hard use' knives.

The Hinderer lockstop ( if there's a different term feel free to correct me ) is it really necessary on a framelock ?
Yes , we all know the XM-18 is one badass knife , I myself would love to own one for use , if I could afford one which I cannot - but ! is the lockstop really necessary ?? I have several framelocks , I always EDC one, I have never even came close to moving the lockbar too far in the opposite direction, never.
I do know what it is there for. I understand the concept. I have one on my Kershaw OD-1 , that said in my opinion it falls into the bells and whistles category.
The above was just an example off the top of my head.

Something to keep in mind about the HLBS is that it was designed by a fireman with the fireman's tasks in mind. Rick mentioned in a post either here or another forum where he has used a folder to get someone out of a car and due to the adrenaline rush from the moment, he over-stretched the lock bar trying to disengage the framelock. However, that overtravel stop is only one of two features intended by the HLBS. I don't want to go in detail about the 2nd feature when it can be looked up pretty easily I think.

 

[Kaizen1]

OP- By your definition and thoughts wouldn't a folding knife in and of itself be considered "excessive" ? Who "really" needs a knife to fold. The pivot in and of itself isn't "necessary." Furthermore why do we really need steel when obsidian gets you such a sharp edge?

How do you justify any refinements as "necessity" or "excess" ??

just playing a little devil's advocate.

I don't believe this is really counter to my main point, as illustrated by my use of the example of the caveman using a sharpened rock in the OP. However, in many areas, fixed blades are either illegal or extremely inconvenient, making folders much more practical albeit not "necessary."

 

[Kaizen1]

For me, personally:

1- Classic edge geometry (i.e. no funky blade grinds of varying angles or odd shapes)
2- Plain edge
3- Simple handle shape that easily allows multiple grips and is comfortable to use for extended periods
4- Nice looking and well proportioned (usually contributes to point #3)
5- Weighs as little as possible, preferably under 3 or 4 ounces
6- Thin blade -- definitely well under 1/8" (goes hand in hand w/ #5)
7- 4 inches closed, or less
8- Slipjoint, lockback or whatever you'd call the Opinel's locking mechanism
9- Well built with quality materials (don't have to be the most expensive materials, though)

I don't begrudge anyone choosing a knife different than one I'd prefer myself. And I'm not offended if someone thinks my taste in knives is stupid, inferior, lame or whatever. Everyone's entitled to an opinion and should be able to respectfully express it on this forum.

It's being disrespectful that gets us in trouble -- but so does being overly sensitive, I've found.

Not sure if you're implying that I might be "overly sensitive" here, but if so, I would disagree with that. I enjoy debate, believe I have strong argument and am merely welcoming all challenges to my points.